New book on ExMormons coming out

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_mentalgymnast
_Emeritus
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Re: New book on ExMormons coming out

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Dr. Shades wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:And it's sometimes difficult in an online forum to know how fully invested people were in their faith.

I disagree (read on).

And if it is true that those that form and participate in communities/associations after Mormonism are generally those that were fully invested, how would one really know that...other than from what they say?

What else would you need?

I suppose it's a matter of trust.

Yep. Just like everything else that's written.

Again, how can one factually know whether or not "Mormons who leave" and DO form communities were or weren't "embedded in it"?

By asking them.

They are, after all, the inarguable experts on what went on in their pasts, are they not?


Hi Dr. Shades,

I suppose the frustration...and I might imagine it would be a universal frustration...is that in these online communities we are, by the very nature of the limitations of seeing the 'other' only through the written word, somewhat handicapped in being able to fully understand where another person is coming from. For example, a day or two ago I posted some rather transparent posts...at least I thought they were...and a poster still, paraphrasing here, said, "You're fooling yourself". Conversation over.

If we had been sitting face to face and/or out on a walk together, that would probably not have been the response necessarily. Or if it was, then through further conversation, eye contact, body language, etc., we might come to a better feel or understanding of each other.

An online fora is not conducive to getting to know the other except for that which they want you to 'see'...but even then we're not seeing each other. It's just words. I know it might have sounded in my post that you responded to that I may have been a bit too distrustful and/or dissing the experience of others. It's not that as much as just not knowing the real person behind the computer on the other side. There are times when I wish it was possible, without seeming creepy, to actually do a face to face chat over Skype/Facetime/Duo within the Discussions browser window. A little 'pop up' where I we could see the human being on the other side of the screen. I know that's not realistic and most folks don't want to be seen in their pajamas or without their hair combed. :smile:

But I think you know what I mean.

Back in the ZLMB days and the mormon-l days (way back there) I would often wonder the same thing..."Who are these folks REALLY?" And truth be told, we never really know or KNEW each other. I suppose that's what was on my mind as I made my previous post.

But it is what it is, and we are left to trust/understand other people based on a very limited medium/means of communication.

Everyone should post their family pictures! Just kidding, of course...

And to the point of Mormonism and how fully invested people were/are (and all that may include), that's very difficult to determine in an online medium. As a result we are left to give each other the benefit of a doubt. And that's not always easy to do...going both ways. Folks on both sides of the tracks tend to have preconceived notions of the 'other'. "They're fooling themselves." Or, " They didn't give it enough time and study." Or, "They became unworthy and lazy." Or, "If they could see the world the way I do, then..."
Etc.,etc.

We are prone to judging and condemnation. It would be less likely to happen if we were neighbors and were chatting across the fence or sitting on the front porch. :smile:

But, again, it is what it is.

Regards,
MG
_Kishkumen
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Re: New book on ExMormons coming out

Post by _Kishkumen »

mentalgymnast wrote:For example, a day or two ago I posted some rather transparent posts...at least I thought they were...and a poster still, paraphrasing here, said, "You're fooling yourself". Conversation over.


That's your decision. I never said the conversation was over. If it is over for you, that's one thing. But don't blame my reaction for the end of the conversation on my end.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Cylon
_Emeritus
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Re: New book on ExMormons coming out

Post by _Cylon »

In case anyone wants to read the dissertation this book is based on, here's the link (thanks, fetchface, for the suggestion): https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/48406/

Symmachus wrote:
Rutgers University Press wrote:Showing that former church members were once deeply embedded in their religious life, Brooks argues that disenchantment unfolds as a struggle to overcome the spiritual, social, and ideological devotion ex-Mormons had to the religious community and not out of a lack of dedication as prominently portrayed in religious and scholarly writing on apostasy.


That just rings completely false to me, and this sounds like yet another portrait of upper-middle class Mormon navel-gazing. Hopefully, that is just the fault of publisher blurbese and this will be a lot more than an academic version of Mormon Stories.

I've read the introduction and first chapter, and so far from what I've read, your critique is valid in certain ways, but doesn't really capture the core of what this work is. Mostly that seems to be the fault of the publisher overgeneralizing the findings of the paper for that blurb. Brooks does make a couple references to data on the church as a whole in an effort to support his research (and I don't think he succeeds at that), but for the most part he is clear that he is studying specific communities of ex-Mormons in a specific place. Ex-Mormons in Utah have a much different experience from ex-Mormons elsewhere, just as the experience of Mormons in Utah is distinct from that of church members worldwide.

The core of the research is indeed the stories that the ex-Mormons he met tell about themselves. In that sense it wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to call it, as you said "an academic version of Mormon Stories." But what I am finding valuable about it is that Brooks incorporates these stories into the sociological research on religious apostasy in a way that focuses on the experiences of the apostates themselves, rather than attempting to frame them from the perspective of the religious institution they've left.

To speak to the larger point about how much the experiences of these ex-Mormons can tell us about the larger body of all people who have left the LDS church, I don't know. I'm inclined to agree with Symmachus that most people who leave the church probably were not that strongly attached to it, but I would also wonder how that number compares with the percentage of people who are still in the church who aren't that strongly attached to it. Also, I think there is plenty of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence to support the idea that this is changing. I do think that the number of people who leave the church that were highly attached and then become disenchanted with church history is increasing. Church leaders have spoken of doubt and disaffection more in recent years than what I remember growing up. In the age of the internet, it is much easier to accidentally fall down the rabbit hole of uncorrelated church history than it used to be. And to add my own anecdote about family apostasy, I am the oldest of six children. Five years ago I left the church, and was the first in my family to do so. Since then, four more of my siblings have left, leaving only one who remains active. All of us were previously active and faithful, and all of us left for similar reasons, studying church history and concluding that what we had believed just wasn't true. I don't think the church is in danger of imploding any time soon, but I do think far more Mormons have a personal connection with this type of apostasy than used to be the case.

In any case, I'm finding the paper to be very interesting, and this thread as well. Thanks for posting about it, Maksutov!
_Maksutov
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Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: New book on ExMormons coming out

Post by _Maksutov »

Cylon wrote:In case anyone wants to read the dissertation this book is based on, here's the link (thanks, fetchface, for the suggestion): https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/48406/


I've read the introduction and first chapter, and so far from what I've read, your critique is valid in certain ways, but doesn't really capture the core of what this work is. Mostly that seems to be the fault of the publisher overgeneralizing the findings of the paper for that blurb. Brooks does make a couple references to data on the church as a whole in an effort to support his research (and I don't think he succeeds at that), but for the most part he is clear that he is studying specific communities of ex-Mormons in a specific place. Ex-Mormons in Utah have a much different experience from ex-Mormons elsewhere, just as the experience of Mormons in Utah is distinct from that of church members worldwide.

The core of the research is indeed the stories that the ex-Mormons he met tell about themselves. In that sense it wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to call it, as you said "an academic version of Mormon Stories." But what I am finding valuable about it is that Brooks incorporates these stories into the sociological research on religious apostasy in a way that focuses on the experiences of the apostates themselves, rather than attempting to frame them from the perspective of the religious institution they've left.

To speak to the larger point about how much the experiences of these ex-Mormons can tell us about the larger body of all people who have left the LDS church, I don't know. I'm inclined to agree with Symmachus that most people who leave the church probably were not that strongly attached to it, but I would also wonder how that number compares with the percentage of people who are still in the church who aren't that strongly attached to it. Also, I think there is plenty of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence to support the idea that this is changing. I do think that the number of people who leave the church that were highly attached and then become disenchanted with church history is increasing. Church leaders have spoken of doubt and disaffection more in recent years than what I remember growing up. In the age of the internet, it is much easier to accidentally fall down the rabbit hole of uncorrelated church history than it used to be. And to add my own anecdote about family apostasy, I am the oldest of six children. Five years ago I left the church, and was the first in my family to do so. Since then, four more of my siblings have left, leaving only one who remains active. All of us were previously active and faithful, and all of us left for similar reasons, studying church history and concluding that what we had believed just wasn't true. I don't think the church is in danger of imploding any time soon, but I do think far more Mormons have a personal connection with this type of apostasy than used to be the case.

In any case, I'm finding the paper to be very interesting, and this thread as well. Thanks for posting about it, Maksutov!


Thank you for the expanded description and the link. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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