A True Faith Promoting Story

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_deacon blues
_Emeritus
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _deacon blues »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:There is no possible way to translate them.


Yep. Although Joseph gave it a beginning salvo. But apparently not under inspiration from God.

Regards,
MG


MG, I understand that you are defending the church. I don't fault people for that. I do fault apologists who just throw out references when most of us, maybe almost all of us have been down the roads you point to. I think you lack credibility because you have not established a record for independent thought. You follow the church line 100% per cent, as far as I can tell, and we are already very familiar with that. Apologists like you would be more credible if you showed even a little original, independent thought- Like one independent thought that is different from the church/party line. For example: Do you believe Brigham Young was ......... well heck, you figure out what I'm getting at. You've posted over 6,500 times. Is there even one time you have posted an original thought?

But, I might be wrong..... could you?
_Shulem
_Emeritus
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _Shulem »

Craig Paxton wrote:discovering that Joseph would make things up and pass his stories off as factual truth…such as the Book of Abraham


That's for sure. The Facsimile Explanations have to be the biggest LDS farce of all. What a total joke. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was a false prophet just as much as I know that there is not a king's name in the writing above Fig. 2, and neither did the Egyptians consider the god Anubis to be a slave -- Joseph Smith's blasphemy is totally false.

I'm 100% sure that Joseph Smith was translating the papyrus through bogus means and the inspiration of his so-called Spirit is that of a lie. 100% sure, absolutely, sure. It's not a matter of faith or hope -- it's a matter of scientific fact based on certainty.

The Mormons stand rebuked for their shameful practices and claims.
_Craig Paxton
_Emeritus
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Simon Southerton wrote:I really enjoyed your story Craig, and catching up recently in Salt Lake City. But I must ask why it has taken so long for you to meet Sandra, after all she attended exmo this year?

I'll never forget meeting Sandra and Gerald back in 2002. I was a little nervous because of their reputation. My feelings towards them had been heavily influenced by how much they have been demonised by generations of shallow apologists. But they were so warm and friendly and Sandra was adorable. It was great to catch up with her again at Exmo.


I've probably asked myself that question a hundred times...and I sadly have to also admit that it's probably more complicated than just the mental programming alone. Not only did I fear both of them because of their so called anti Mormon demonized reputation, it had to be something more than just that. Because even after I had mentally conclude that the churches truth claims were not based in reality I have still been intimidated by their reputation.

The programing runs deep in me I guess. But I view this as a very important step in my awakening. Plus I have wanted to share my story with Sandra for years...she deserved to hear it from me and also hear me personally thank her for all of her work and the personal sacrifices that she and her husband made over the year by being so open and forthright in their work.

She did ask me where I have eventually landed and I did get a sense of disappointment when I told her that when the wheels fell off, they all fell off of the wagon.

Glad to know you arrive back in Oz safe and sound...I too enjoyed being able to catch up with you as well,,,cheers mate.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Craig Paxton
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:28 pm

Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Shulem wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:discovering that Joseph would make things up and pass his stories off as factual truth…such as the Book of Abraham


That's for sure. The Facsimile Explanations have to be the biggest LDS farce of all. What a total joke. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was a false prophet just as much as I know that there is not a king's name in the writing above Fig. 2, and neither did the Egyptians consider the god Anubis to be a slave -- Joseph Smith's blasphemy is totally false.

I'm 100% sure that Joseph Smith was translating the papyrus through bogus means and the inspiration of his so-called Spirit is that of a lie. 100% sure, absolutely, sure. It's not a matter of faith or hope -- it's a matter of scientific fact based on certainty.

The Mormons stand rebuked for their shameful practices and claims.


Once again you don't fail...I get a kick out of your posts, Shulem you always put a smile on my face.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_moinmoin
_Emeritus
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _moinmoin »

Re: the opening post

Craig: translated excerpts from "Shadow or Reality" were the lynchpin behind the "Bremen Apostasy" in north Germany. I've shared this before, but both my father and I knew very well one of the key players in it. Inadequate/insufficient responses from concerned members eventually led to the contraction of two wards into one, with I would estimate about a third of members leaving the Church. The third mission president during this time, a native German and future FAIR member, arranged for a conference call with several BYU professors with some of the key figures, and they stated that their questions had been answered to their satisfaction. With one exception, this didn't ultimately matter --- the damage had been done. The "toxic doubt" you describe in your opening post is very difficult to overcome, even when questions and concerns are answered. It's a matter of shaken trust and a feeling of having been betrayed or deceived.

I've ordered many things from the Tanners over the years (UTLM is an excellent source of old materials I would otherwise have to hunt down and copy myself. If I were independently wealthy, I would enjoy travelling to Special Collections libraries and reading and copying all sorts of things. :smile: My copy of "Shadow or Reality?" was actually given to me by a member of the Seventy (he said it would be put to good use). It's a nice hardbound copy, not the usual colored cardstock-bound fare from UTLM.

I am convinced that the source of inspiration for the title "Shadow or Reality?" was their reading of Journal of Discourses. It's a phrase that appears a number of times. I've asked Sandra, but she wouldn't say.

One cool thing is that the copy of "View of the Hebrews" that they sell is a photocopy of B.H. Roberts's own copy, so it has his editorial and personal notes in the margins. I suspected this in reading it, and Sandra confirmed with me that it was his that they copied.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _mentalgymnast »

deacon blues wrote:Apologists like you would be more credible if you showed even a little original, independent thought...


Not quite sure why you said that. I quite often express original thought. Oh well.

In this thread I'm merely pointing out that the Kinderhook Plate incident may not have only one possible outcome in the way that some folks have traditionally viewed it.

Regards,
MG
_Craig Paxton
_Emeritus
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _Craig Paxton »

moinmoin wrote:Re: the opening post

Craig: translated excerpts from "Shadow or Reality" were the lynchpin behind the "Bremen Apostasy" in north Germany. I've shared this before, but both my father and I knew very well one of the key players in it. Inadequate/insufficient responses from concerned members eventually led to the contraction of two wards into one, with I would estimate about a third of members leaving the Church. The third mission president during this time, a native German and future FAIR member, arranged for a conference call with several BYU professors with some of the key figures, and they stated that their questions had been answered to their satisfaction. With one exception, this didn't ultimately matter --- the damage had been done. The "toxic doubt" you describe in your opening post is very difficult to overcome, even when questions and concerns are answered. It's a matter of shaken trust and a feeling of having been betrayed or deceived.

I've ordered many things from the Tanners over the years (UTLM is an excellent source of old materials I would otherwise have to hunt down and copy myself. If I were independently wealthy, I would enjoy travelling to Special Collections libraries and reading and copying all sorts of things. :smile: My copy of "Shadow or Reality?" was actually given to me by a member of the Seventy (he said it would be put to good use). It's a nice hardbound copy, not the usual colored cardstock-bound fare from UTLM.

I am convinced that the source of inspiration for the title "Shadow or Reality?" was their reading of Journal of Discourses. It's a phrase that appears a number of times. I've asked Sandra, but she wouldn't say.

One cool thing is that the copy of "View of the Hebrews" that they sell is a photocopy of B.H. Roberts's own copy, so it has his editorial and personal notes in the margins. I suspected this in reading it, and Sandra confirmed with me that it was his that they copied.


Very interesting...Is there an existing thread on this Bremen Apostacy? I do find it very interesting how access to conflicting information impacts testimony. This can only happen when the conflicting information is more credible than the conflicting truth claim.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_moinmoin
_Emeritus
Posts: 792
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:40 am

Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _moinmoin »

Craig Paxton wrote:
Very interesting...Is there an existing thread on this Bremen Apostacy? I do find it very interesting how access to conflicting information impacts testimony.


There is, but my search skills in anything are terrible. If anyone can find it, that would be great!

If I recall, I was asked about this and shared some excerpts from a document this ex-mission president had made compiling his and my firsthand experiences with this. It started when I was a young zone leader (one of my greenies shared concerns about things that were going on in one of the Bremen wards). When I called my last greenie and comp to tell him I was getting married, he told me about the carnage and aftermath. Years later, I met this mission president through FAIR, and he had all of the background information.

What was especially tough for me was that one of the key figures was a young bishop my father knew in the late 1960s, and our high councilor in the mid 1990s on the North Sea coast. He also helped me with a tough issue I was seeking revelation on, and this was (I learned after the fact) during his spiral downward with his faith collapse. He definitely wasn't a "bitter apostate." His shelf collapsed. I enjoyed hearing from the mission president about how he had yearned for the days when he was a bishop and a stake presidency member: he said that they lived "in einer heilen Welt" then (a whole, or complete world. "Heil" means "healing" or "salvation;" cf. "Heil Hitler"). The moral for this was that we both feel that if these people could have gotten quality help earlier on (before the shelf collapse), some or many of them could have been saved. As it was, what was available in German in terms of material and experience with Tanner material was very inadequate in the 1990s.

This can only happen when the conflicting information is more credible than the conflicting truth claim.


Not necessarily. If one's assumptions and expectations are way off, then that can be a significant factor as well.

I agree that this has largely been an unforced error on the part of the Church, and that whitewashing and hiding things in an attempt to protect have created a climate where shelf collapse is more catastrophic. The milieu of my upbringing is such that I was immune to any shocker! revelations about Church history, the scriptures, etc. I even remember getting a copy of Book of Commandments from the Hedrickites at a young age (their purpose was to show changes) and going through it and D&C. I already knew about "the rod" in D&C 8; it wasn't a pulling-out-the-rug moment for me. I realize that most people don't know this, and it is very jarring when they are told (always by critics who want there to be shock value).

The Church is baby-stepping its way towards better inoculation. All I can do is influence people in my sphere of influence
_kairos
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Re: A True Faith Promoting Story

Post by _kairos »

Craig you have come full circle- writing with great honesty and sensibility about your life in Mormonism and now out -the story is gratefully received-thanx.

i also wonder if sandra will ever divulge the names of the secret saints who helped gather materials that she and gerald used to make the case against the church. they were given quite a trove of source materials from insiders i am almost sure.

k
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