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 Post subject: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:53 am 
God

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Peterson
Quote:
W25: "To have $100 Billion in available funds, and to continue to expect its' members to provide free labor and to give, give, give to the Church"

There is no "Church" apart from the members, and the Brethren are just members with exceptional callings. They're not a separate elite caste.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread
If there is no “Church” and it is just the members, then what do the leadership need with a secret stash of $100 billion?

Kiwi57
Quote:
Missionary: Well our leaders don't spend the money on lavish real estate or expensive cars. They're not using it to make themselves rich. And they don't even retire. That money is being saved for a rainy day. When times get tough, people give less, but the Church has to spend more.
But your colleague Peterson has just explained there is no “Church” except for the members. So the $100 billion belongs to the members. Give it back to them and let them save it for the rainy day.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:36 am 
God

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Peterson
Quote:
...the Brethren are just members with exceptional callings. They're not a separate elite caste.

That is such a dishonest comment.

If Apostles are just members with callings why do they get paid (plus all expenses paid) for doing it?
Why do other members have to stand when an Apostle enters the room?
Are Sacrament talks by members considered scripture?
Why don’t they pay tithing on their income?
When was the last time they cleaned the toilets Of their local Chapel?

_________________
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:32 am 
God
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I have a question wrote:
Peterson
Quote:
...the Brethren are just members with exceptional callings. They're not a separate elite caste.

That is such a dishonest comment.

If Apostles are just members with callings why do they get paid (plus all expenses paid) for doing it?
Why do other members have to stand when an Apostle enters the room?
Are Sacrament talks by members considered scripture?
Why don’t they pay tithing on their income?
When was the last time they cleaned the toilets Of their local Chapel?


You make some great points, but for the sake of accuracy I believe the apostles do pay tithing on their income.

A year or two ago, somebody somehow got a hold of one of Henry B. Eyring's pay stubs and leaked it. As I recall, the amount was surprisingly modest--a high 5-figure annual income, and it had all of the normal deductions for health insurance and such that a peon's would have. Further, he had hand-written on the stub his tithing obligation and marked it as paid. This was remarkably strong evidence that he does pay tithing.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:37 am 
God
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Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
Maybe it is time to revised the primary song lyrics to:

"I hope they call me on a mission to clean toilets".

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LDS Church "Come Follow Me" manual in 2020, print version.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:15 am 
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https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/f/ff/Record_of_Payroll_or_Allowance_for_Henry_B_Eyring-1999-2000.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:14 am 
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I never really looked at those pay stubs before, but it looks like Henry Eyring pays tithing on his net income.

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:02 pm 
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I just want to make this point again:

Quote:
I think Mr. Peterson misses the point entirely (par for course, really). It’s not so much whether a house is valuated at $100,000 or $10,000,000. It’s not so much if they have material goods sitting around and collecting dust or not.

They’re free from economic stress forever. That’s it.

All the travel they do? Put it on the card. They don’t have to hold a fundraiser (outside of demanding tithing every General Conference).

All the meals they eat? Put it on the card.

Clothing? Card.

School for their family? “I gotchu, fam.”, says the Church.

Medical? Done.

Dental? Done.

Houses? Done.

Book deals? Done.

Side hustles that pay you a load of additional income? Done.

All of this is incredibly liberating when you’re freed up to show up and give your thoughts on some matter, shake some hands, encourage some people, visit with others, attend some meetings, and just generally have a great lifestyle.

That’s the wonderful things about being a Mormon apostle.

The $100B is just a glaring, obvious, unapologetic neon sign telling everyone that LDS Inc. is a lucrative, smart, long-term investment for this nepotistic business model.

You don’t need to see these guys jet setting on yachts to know they’re living their best lives. They’re on easy street because they have zero worries, and a cadre of people around them to ensure it keeps happening like clockwork.

- Doc


While Mr. Peterson is throwing sand in the eyes of tithe payers, it doesn't remove the fact that many of these church leaders do, in fact, live in million dollar residences, or fancy houses in tony neighborhoods, or have multiple residences. He's playing games with showing images of the Vanderbilt mansion drawing up a false equivalency. Most members live in humble, lower income residences, and have made HUGE sacrifices to pay tithing that doesn't need to be collected on them because they're not really showing an increase. It's just a pure, unadulterated money grab when you convince people that it's a "principle" they must live.

It's absolutely immoral and vile what they're doing to so many people who could've used that money to help them have a life that the leaders themselves enjoy.

- Doc

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:20 pm 
God

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I just want to make this point again:

Quote:
I think Mr. Peterson misses the point entirely (par for course, really). It’s not so much whether a house is valuated at $100,000 or $10,000,000. It’s not so much if they have material goods sitting around and collecting dust or not.

They’re free from economic stress forever. That’s it.

All the travel they do? Put it on the card. They don’t have to hold a fundraiser (outside of demanding tithing every General Conference).

All the meals they eat? Put it on the card.

Clothing? Card.

School for their family? “I gotchu, fam.”, says the Church.

Medical? Done.

Dental? Done.

Houses? Done.

Book deals? Done.

Side hustles that pay you a load of additional income? Done.

All of this is incredibly liberating when you’re freed up to show up and give your thoughts on some matter, shake some hands, encourage some people, visit with others, attend some meetings, and just generally have a great lifestyle.

That’s the wonderful things about being a Mormon apostle.

The $100B is just a glaring, obvious, unapologetic neon sign telling everyone that LDS Inc. is a lucrative, smart, long-term investment for this nepotistic business model.

You don’t need to see these guys jet setting on yachts to know they’re living their best lives. They’re on easy street because they have zero worries, and a cadre of people around them to ensure it keeps happening like clockwork.

- Doc


While Mr. Peterson is throwing sand in the eyes of tithe payers, it doesn't remove the fact that many of these church leaders do, in fact, live in million dollar residences, or fancy houses in tony neighborhoods, or have multiple residences. He's playing games with showing images of the Vanderbilt mansion drawing up a false equivalency. Most members live in humble, lower income residences, and have made HUGE sacrifices to pay tithing that doesn't need to be collected on them because they're not really showing an increase. It's just a pure, unadulterated money grab when you convince people that it's a "principle" they must live.

It's absolutely immoral and vile what they're doing to so many people who could've used that money to help them have a life that the leaders themselves enjoy.

- Doc


The clichéd Mormon story is the faithful BYU couple having six or eight or more children and then working tirelessly to support them while serving in the church. Some do quite well, but many don't. Many work under decades of near-constant stress and worry, often watching their children go without and always someone going without.

It's a cliché and stereotype, not always true, but based on real lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:23 pm 
God

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consiglieri wrote:
I never really looked at those pay stubs before, but it looks like Henry Eyring pays tithing on his net income.

That’s a fantastic catch!

_________________
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson & Kiwi57 make the critics point for them...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:04 pm 
God
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If you really want to know what tweaks a Mormon, what hits a little too close to home, just look at the 16-part ( ! ) miniseries about the Church's finances Mr. Peterson is running on his blog. I don't think I've ever seen an apologist so fixated on a singular topic. :surprised:

- Doc

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