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 Post subject: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:12 am 
God

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https://www.google.com/amp/fox13now.com ... riage/amp/

Quote:
SALT LAKE CITY -- Nearly all of the Utah State Senate has signed on in support of a Colorado shop who refused to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple in a case now pending before the U.S. Supreme Court.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, also signed on in support of Masterpiece Cake Shop in a series of amicus filings.


Are these organisations too stupid to see where this would end up were they to be successful?

All this is doing is feeding sectarianism.

Quote:
SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church and 22 Republican state senators have jumped into the legal battle over a Colorado baker refusing to create a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

They put their names on amicus or friend-of-the court briefs supporting Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips in his case against the Colorado Civil Rights Commission pending before the U.S. Supreme Court.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... -case.html

The Church talks about showing love and inclusion towards gay people, but it’s actions don’t match its words.

Quote:
Williams said he can't imagine Utah vendors hanging signs that say, “No Gays Served Here.”

"Such an outcome would only reignite and exacerbate the culture war, further dividing an already fractured nation," he said.

naïveté in the extreme. But by the time he realises it, it will be too late.

Ironically, at the same time as the Church was handing over sums of money to support the persecution of gay people who sought only to buy a cake...Jeff Holland was bemoaning the persecution of early Latter-day Saints who sought only to live a life with multiple wives (which was illegal at the time).

Quote:
Last year I explained that the early Latter-day Saints in America faced seemingly insurmountable obstacles, being driven from one state to another to another; losing their beloved prophet, Joseph Smith, in a violent mob attack; and being forced to migrate 1,300 miles over rough terrain long before the railroad connected the east and west coasts of the United States.
The Mormons entered the Salt Lake Valley in what is now the state of Utah. But even from this dry and mostly uninhabited, remote Rocky Mountain home, they continued to face persecution for their religious beliefs and practices.
At times during the next several decades, some Church leaders were jailed or forced to live in hiding, while many Church members were disenfranchised. Laws were passed that threatened to seize the Church’s assets and properties, including houses of worship like chapels and temples. The Church and its teachings were smeared in national newspapers, and its leaders lampooned in political cartoons. These times were dark for the Latter-day Saints. Observers of the day would have thought that the Church was on the brink of extinction.[1]
So what motivated these men and women to keep the faith in the face of such adversity? What drove the Latter-day Saints not only to continue in the Church, but to strive to bring their religion and ideas to the society around them?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/t ... ence#_edn1
Jeff neglects to mention the specific reasons for such ‘persecution’, nor the fact that the Church has since renounced the religious practice for which they were ‘persecuted’.

Shouldn’t a Church so aware of what it feels like to be persecuted for who you are, take a moment to understand the irony of funding the persecution of some people who only want the same consideration? “From persecution to integration” seems to be a one way street from a Mormon perspective.

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“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:18 am 
God
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The Mormon church needs to pay taxes.

Anyway, some comments from the SL Tribune article:

Quote:
Thank God Utah has Mormons and Mormon politicians to keep hate alive, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
-

This business is a bar
This business is a restaurant
This business hates gay people

-

This church is a business.
-

Look who's begging for "Special Rights" now. These people want the freedom to pick and choose which State and Federal laws they have to follow....just like they do the bible. Quit selling your bigotry as religious freedom and it's time crazy starts paying taxes as well.

-

Good Lord! Will the Church also issue a handbook on how businesses should discriminate and reject gay customers in a Christ-like fashion? The hypocrisy of that organization is astounding. "Don't discriminate against our right to discriminate!" Total lunacy.

-

Especially considering that they are demanding that Colorado bend to their discriminatory wishes. Utah Mormons throw a hissy fit re: "government overreach" even when it doesn't even remotely exist at all -- but hey -- another state really ought to cave to their bigoted whims. Denying gay folk public accommodation here, just ain't satisfying enough.

-

Neo-nazi's are a protected class. Just like anybody. If they worship Hitler's, that is their progative (note: I think they are dispensable).

But you proved my point: you would "kick their sorry butts out" if they asked for a custom cake with Hitler. You shouldn't be subjected to making something that represents something you feel strongly against. I would do the same thing, and let them take a cake off the shelf and decorate it themselves.

Maybe another example would be a cake with the confederate flag on it. What if a normal looking white person comes in and ask for a cake with a confederate flag on it -does the baker have the right to say no, because to him it repesresnt something he feel deeply against? He should.

-

You're obviously feeling frustrated, but the distinctions you're trying to make here are really quite arbitrary. What if the Orthodox Jewish artist refuses to create a commissioned art for a Conservative Jew? Would you still agree that is permissible? And what is a "non-custom" piece of art, anyway? I have a print of George de La Tour's "The Repentant Magdalene" hanging in my living room, in a unique frame I made myself. Is that a "custom" or "non-custom" work under your analysis?

As to the original question involving cake, what if I do not actually bake the cake myself, but I do ice it? Does it become a "custom-made" cake on that basis? What if I don't actually ice it, but only cut it into slices before I sell it? Is it then "custom-made?"

There's a good argument to be made that, if you're participating in the public marketplace, you can be required to offer your wares to everyone equally. Once you involve government in your efforts to discriminate, you have triggered the state action necessary to require that Constitutional principles such as the equal protection of the laws must be applied.


- Doc

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I have Mental Gymnast on ignore until he makes amends with Grindael, and both Grindael and IHAQ start posting again. I will not allow a troll to drive off two great board members without taking a stand.


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:11 am 
God
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Here's a nice little meme or whatever it's called when one puts words on a picture from r/exmormon:

https://i.imgur.com/hyzcJOL.png

Quote:
"It would also be desirable to allow employers to exclude homosexuals from influential positions in media, literature, and entertainment, since those jobs influence the tone and ideals of a society. However, homosexuals have such footholds and influence in these areas that such a law would be difficult to enact and almost impossible to enforce." - Dallin H. Oaks


Here are some more MG'esque hatespeech from these men in a position of power and political influence:

Quote:
“Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, He is our Heavenly Father.” - Boyd K Packer

"So long as you tolerate this 'gay world' and its degenerate people, you are in a very desperate situation and you are playing with fire just like a child who might be pounding a bomb with a hammer." – Spencer W. Kimball

“To the ‘misinformed’ who believe ‘God make them that way… This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way?” -Spencer W. Kimball

“Monogamy is a false tradition that leads to the crime against nature. He argued that allowing men to have multiple wives would decrease temptation to engage in sexual acts with other men” – Apostle George Q. Cannon

“If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly…we do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence.” -BYU President Ernest Wilkinson

October General Conference 1976– Apostle Boyd K. Packer gives his now infamous talk entitled “To Young Men Only.” He said some young men are “tempted to handle one another, to have contact with one another in unusual ways.” He commented that “such practices are perversion….Physical mischief with another man is forbidden.” Packer also essentially advocated anti-gay violence in his speech when he recounted the story of a male missionary who had “hit” and “floored” his mission companion, apparently for simply revealing his sexual orientation. Because Packer does not specify the reason for the violent response, the talk leaves interpretation open. Packer told the missionary, “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.” Packer told his audience, “I am not recommending that course [of violence] to you but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.” The talk was published and is distributed today.

“Since homosexuals have become a nationwide entity, and have come out of hiding to demand their place in the sun, many of them claim that they are what they are because they were born that way and cannot help it. How ridiculous is such a claim. It was not God who mad them that way, any more than He made bank robbers the way they are.” –Apostle Mark E Petersen


The unfortunate thing is this is just the tip (heh) of the iceberg when it comes to hateful rhetoric by Mormons and Mormon leadership. :/

- Doc

_________________
I have Mental Gymnast on ignore until he makes amends with Grindael, and both Grindael and IHAQ start posting again. I will not allow a troll to drive off two great board members without taking a stand.


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:43 am 
God
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Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:28 pm
Posts: 1804
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The Mormon church needs to pay taxes.

Anyway, some comments from the SL Tribune article:

Quote:
Thank God Utah has Mormons and Mormon politicians to keep hate alive, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
-

This business is a bar
This business is a restaurant
This business hates gay people

-

This church is a business.
-

Look who's begging for "Special Rights" now. These people want the freedom to pick and choose which State and Federal laws they have to follow....just like they do the bible. Quit selling your bigotry as religious freedom and it's time crazy starts paying taxes as well.

-

Good Lord! Will the Church also issue a handbook on how businesses should discriminate and reject gay customers in a Christ-like fashion? The hypocrisy of that organization is astounding. "Don't discriminate against our right to discriminate!" Total lunacy.

-

Especially considering that they are demanding that Colorado bend to their discriminatory wishes. Utah Mormons throw a hissy fit re: "government overreach" even when it doesn't even remotely exist at all -- but hey -- another state really ought to cave to their bigoted whims. Denying gay folk public accommodation here, just ain't satisfying enough.

-

Neo-nazi's are a protected class. Just like anybody. If they worship Hitler's, that is their progative (note: I think they are dispensable).

But you proved my point: you would "kick their sorry butts out" if they asked for a custom cake with Hitler. You shouldn't be subjected to making something that represents something you feel strongly against. I would do the same thing, and let them take a cake off the shelf and decorate it themselves.

Maybe another example would be a cake with the confederate flag on it. What if a normal looking white person comes in and ask for a cake with a confederate flag on it -does the baker have the right to say no, because to him it repesresnt something he feel deeply against? He should.

-

You're obviously feeling frustrated, but the distinctions you're trying to make here are really quite arbitrary. What if the Orthodox Jewish artist refuses to create a commissioned art for a Conservative Jew? Would you still agree that is permissible? And what is a "non-custom" piece of art, anyway? I have a print of George de La Tour's "The Repentant Magdalene" hanging in my living room, in a unique frame I made myself. Is that a "custom" or "non-custom" work under your analysis?

As to the original question involving cake, what if I do not actually bake the cake myself, but I do ice it? Does it become a "custom-made" cake on that basis? What if I don't actually ice it, but only cut it into slices before I sell it? Is it then "custom-made?"

There's a good argument to be made that, if you're participating in the public marketplace, you can be required to offer your wares to everyone equally. Once you involve government in your efforts to discriminate, you have triggered the state action necessary to require that Constitutional principles such as the equal protection of the laws must be applied.


- Doc


And here I thought that we had left the days of codified segregation and "Jim Crow"
Image Image Image Image

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"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:51 am 
God
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Posts: 1804
Well they've finally played their hand...If there was any lingering doubt where the church stood on LGTQ rights, by their claims of extending love and equality, the church has now left no doubt. They are an anti Gay organization. They can no longer hide behind their rhetoric and public relations attempts by claiming support for the LGBQ community with their claimed support of LGBQ concerts and web sites...they are an anti gay organization period...may they rot in hell.


Image

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"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:16 am 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:25 pm
Posts: 5960
Craig Paxton wrote:
Well they've finally played their hand...If there was any lingering doubt where the church stood on LGTQ rights, by their claims of extending love and equality, the church has now left no doubt. They are an anti Gay organization....

I used to think the "MG-esque hatespeech," as Doc puts it, from our resident troll was just a put-on in an attempt to disrupt and irritate. Sadly, though, this thread clearly outlines that he is expressing (and believes in!) an LDS position well-supported by its leaders. That is sad that such hate is encouraged.


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:00 pm 
The Outcast
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I've been served at an LDS-owned restaurant on Sunday (at the top of the old Hotel Utah, brunch on a Sunday morning)

I've heard explanation why it is okay for pro-golfer, pro-football and other pro-sport players to play on Sunday because that is the only time that they can ply their trades

I've been served an alcoholic drink in a bar in a Marriott, owned by the highly celebrated LDS, temple-recommend holding family

We all know about JSjr's adultery disguised as "practicing polygamy... commanded by god"

I've seen bare shoulder, partially bare back women in ads for City Creek Center

But it is a matter of conscience, a matter of religious liberty that homophobe bakers not have to decorate a cake for a legal, gay wedding.

_________________
It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, ... that Negroes...are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time.
LDS First Presidency, 8/17/1949

"without evidence what you say is worthless"-Philo Sofee, 7/16/2017


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:11 pm 
The Outcast
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What is it about cake decorating bakers and religious liberty?

Why have we not heard of a printer refusing to print up announcements for a gay wedding, such as
Quote:
Mr and Mrs Jack Brown are proud to announce the marriage of their daughter,

Jane,

to Nancy,

the daughter of Mr and Mrs Joe Green
?

Is their something religiously sacred about cake decorating? Are their no printers with "conscience" and "morals"?

What about wedding halls and caterers?

I think once I've heard of a wedding photographer balking at taking pics at a gay wedding, but it seems there must be something special about bakers that decorate cakes. Is it because in the temple you have to wear a baker's hat?

_________________
It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, ... that Negroes...are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time.
LDS First Presidency, 8/17/1949

"without evidence what you say is worthless"-Philo Sofee, 7/16/2017


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:13 pm 
The Outcast
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It's obvious to front desk clerks in hotels that many of those coming and going incident to prostitution in hotel rooms, obvious quite often when two people checking in to a hotel (one room) are a gay couple. Have the hoteliers no morals, no outrage of conscience?

_________________
It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, ... that Negroes...are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time.
LDS First Presidency, 8/17/1949

"without evidence what you say is worthless"-Philo Sofee, 7/16/2017


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 Post subject: Re: Tithing used to support discriminating cake shop.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:36 pm 
God
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sock puppet wrote:
Is it because in the temple you have to wear a baker's hat?


Ok, that made me laugh.


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