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 Post subject: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:45 am 
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A message from President Monson is featured on the front page of LDS.org.

https://www.LDS.org/liahona/2017/09/pro ... _&lang=eng

He considers the lives of various church presidents and synopsizes the main thing he learned from each.

Strangely, he doesn't mention a single revelation, even when he is talking about President Kimball.

1. From President Grant, he learns persistence.

2. From George Albert Smith he learns to stay on the Lord's side.

3. From David O. McKay he learns consideration for others.

4. From Joseph Fielding Smith he learned to study the scriptures.

5. From Harold B. Lee to stay in tune with the Holy Ghost.

6. From President Kimball he learned dedication.

7. From President Benson (!) he learned love. (Sort of like consideration for others from President McKay, but it's a long list and there are only so many principles to use.)

8. From President Hunter he learned courtesy. (Even closer to President McKay's consideration for others.)

9. President Hinckley taught us to do our best. (Sort of like President Grant's persistence.)

After naming all the prophets in his lifetime, President Monson (or whoever is writing this for him) goes on to state the usual trope about how this church gets revelation all the time; in fact, it is the "lifeblood" of the church.

Quote:
Continuous revelation is the very lifeblood of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


It is a strange conclusion to a message that mentions nine prophets (ten if we include the author), lists the main things learned from them, and doesn't mention even a hint of revelation anywhere.

I think this article does a good job of illustrating the strange state of Mormonism--being a church that trumpets continuing revelation through its prophets, but doesn't have any specifics to mention.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am 
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I really feel for you. You are a man caught in two different worlds, and you're not allowing yourself to be who you are - your authentic self.

Well. Maybe you are. That ^ was judgmental. What I mean is it seems like you kind of have a foot in each world, but somehow it seems like you'd be lost if you didn't. Do you ever see yourself fully exiting the LDS church? Anyway, I'm glad you post here. You contribute great content.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:45 am 
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10. JOSEPH SMITH: Marrying 14 year old girls and other men's wives.
11. BRIGHAM YOUNG: Polygamy.
12. JOHN TAYLOR: More polygamy
13. SPENCER KIMBALL: Black is beautiful, baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:48 am 
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President Monson taught us how to go shopping.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:00 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It is a strange conclusion to a message that mentions nine prophets (ten if we include the author), lists the main things learned from them, and doesn't mention even a hint of revelation anywhere.

I think this article does a good job of illustrating the strange state of Mormonism--being a church that trumpets continuing revelation through its prophets, but doesn't have any specifics to mention.


Oh, I'm sure that there were lots of revelations. Otherwise the present living prophet would not have said that 'Continuous revelation is the very lifeblood of the gospel of Jesus Christ.'.

But they were all just so very sacred that it would not be proper to talk about them. I mean, at some stage the prophets must have learned what size shorts Jesus wears, and stuff like that. No-one (except the prophets of course) needs to know that.

On a comment above: for some people, being their true selves means remaining in the culture of their birth, while reserving a private space in which one says 'I like these people, and I want to go on doing what I have always done, and what my family is used to doing. But I do not actually believe that the statements made by the CoJCoLDS have truth value (like saying 'The Dow was at 22,000 this morning'), rather than cultural and emotional significance to its members.' I didn't have to consider that option: but I might well have done so had circumstances been different, and I knew other members of my church whose attachment to that church worked on that basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:31 am 
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Is this part of the warmup for next year's curriculum change?


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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:33 am 
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Well perhaps all the revelations are just too sacred to talk about. There is that.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:36 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Well perhaps all the revelations are just too sacred to talk about. There is that.

Perhaps the only revelation ever offered up is that there will be more revelations.


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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Seems to be drawn from a 2009 BYU devotional talk. See here.


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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Well perhaps all the revelations are just too sacred to talk about. There is that.


I like this excuse best because it lets our imaginations run wild. They must surely be learning so many super exciting things about the afterlife and how many young virgins they are going to get that it must be kept secret.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:51 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
It is a strange conclusion to a message that mentions nine prophets (ten if we include the author), lists the main things learned from them, and doesn't mention even a hint of revelation anywhere.

I think this article does a good job of illustrating the strange state of Mormonism--being a church that trumpets continuing revelation through its prophets, but doesn't have any specifics to mention.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
I think I have answered this once before. If you don't believe the revelations the Church has already received, what makes you think you are going to believe any new ones? and what difference would it make to you if they did? You are not going to believe it anyway; so what difference would it make to you?

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:09 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
I think I have answered this once before. If you don't believe the revelations the Church has already received, what makes you think you are going to believe any new ones? and what difference would it make to you if they did? You are not going to believe it anyway; so what difference would it make to you?

Are you trying to suggest that perhaps humankind is not ready for the power that has been suppressed within these modern prophets and lies in wait for the day that it gets unleashed?

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:10 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
I think I have answered this once before. If you don't believe the revelations the Church has already received, what makes you think you are going to believe any new ones? and what difference would it make to you if they did? You are not going to believe it anyway; so what difference would it make to you?

I'm not consiglieri but I face this criticism from time to time. "Why do you care, you don't believe it anyway!?" Well, I do care for some stupid reason.

It's like watching Star Trek and they come up with some fake explanation for how something works that contradicts something that they previously said. It's annoying and it is lazy, sloppy writing, especially if you can't keep fundamentals consistent, let alone the less significant details. It's annoying to watch a church...err...I mean show that doesn't take itself seriously enough to spend the mental energy to think through how things are supposed to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:11 pm 
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The purpose of a prophet is to foretell the coming of Jesus and perhaps their job feels obsolete to them since Jesus already came? It's not their fault the thing they need to prophesy about already happened. Poor guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:26 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
The purpose of a prophet is to foretell the coming of Jesus and perhaps their job feels obsolete to them since Jesus already came? It's not their fault the thing they need to prophesy about already happened. Poor guys.


Jesus the Jew is never coming back. The Mormon latter days are long over. It's going on 200 years since Joe Blow Smith said he saw god and Jesus in the grove. How long are Mormons going to call their church after the last days? At some point it's going to become a joke and Mormons will lose faith. The early Mormons practically thought Jesus was knocking on the door and Joe Blow Smith was really getting their hopes up. But as we see, Jesus and Joe are long since dead and never coming back. The latter days for the saints are over. It's time for them to change the name of their church.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:36 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
If you don't believe the revelations the Church has already received, what makes you think you are going to believe any new ones? and what difference would it make to you if they did? You are not going to believe it anyway; so what difference would it make to you?


Nope. I don't believe in any of the revelations the church has given but I'd love to see the church pop out more revelations so they can be scrutinized and verified false as so many other revelations the church has put out have been shown to be false.

You know, the early Mormons really thought it was a revelation that there was an Egyptians king's name written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 just as Joseph Smith the translator revealed. They didn't know the name because Joseph didn't give it but they honestly believed in their hearts by the power of the Holy Ghost that the name was written and were hoping the world would someday relearn Egyptian and prove their prophet correct.

I bear you my testimony that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no king's name written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 and none of the Church Presidents can or will translate a name from the characters in the Facsimile. I bear my testimony that I know the prophets of Mormonism are false and have no special powers. They are blind men leading a blind flock and you are one of the blind, zerinus. You are blind. You are sucker for Joe Blow Smith translations. You are peddling garbage.

:biggrin:

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Mormon apologetics is simply the process of drawing a target around where the arrow fell. (I have a question)

And when the landing spot of the arrow is moved, RE-DRAW THE TARGET. (Polygamy-Porter)


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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:53 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
I think I have answered this once before. If you don't believe the revelations the Church has already received, what makes you think you are going to believe any new ones? and what difference would it make to you if they did? You are not going to believe it anyway; so what difference would it make to you?

In other words, it's your fault Consiglieri.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:21 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Are you trying to suggest that perhaps humankind is not ready for the power that has been suppressed within these modern prophets and lies in wait for the day that it gets unleashed?
fetchface wrote:
I'm not consiglieri but I face this criticism from time to time. "Why do you care, you don't believe it anyway!?" Well, I do care for some stupid reason.

It's like watching Star Trek and they come up with some fake explanation for how something works that contradicts something that they previously said. It's annoying and it is lazy, sloppy writing, especially if you can't keep fundamentals consistent, let alone the less significant details. It's annoying to watch a church...err...I mean show that doesn't take itself seriously enough to spend the mental energy to think through how things are supposed to work.
If that criticism had come from a believing Mormon, I might have taken it more seriously, and given it a more thoughtful reply; but coming from a cynical unbeliever, that is the most appropriate answer to give.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:27 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
The purpose of a prophet is to foretell the coming of Jesus and perhaps their job feels obsolete to them since Jesus already came? It's not their fault the thing they need to prophesy about already happened. Poor guys.
The purpose of a prophet is to tell people what God wants them to hear, and to do god’s work on earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
In other words, it's your fault Consiglieri.
His question is just impertinent.

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 Post subject: Re: Prophets to Guide Us
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:44 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
If that criticism had come from a believing Mormon, I might have taken it more seriously, and given it a more thoughtful reply; but coming from a cynical unbeliever, that is the most appropriate answer to give.

No, you wouldn't have.

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