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 Post subject: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:06 pm 
The Outcast
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What was on the brass plates that made them so important that E/J/HG (if real) would order Nephi to kill Laban to get them?

The Book of Mormon says, 1 Ne 3:3 "For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass."

Book of Mormon, 1 Ne 3:12: "And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father [of Lehi]."

1 Ne 3:29: "...Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands. ..."

1 Ne 4:10: "And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban."

Later in 1 Ne 4, Nephi deceived the servant of Laban into thinking Nephi was Laban, to get those plates, rationalizing "13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

1 Ne 5:

Quote:
14 * * *it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.

15 And they were also led out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.

16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.
So these plates were created by Laban and his fathers. Seems Laban had a much greater right to the brass plates than, say, Lehi, who neither he nor his fathers had kept such records.
Quote:
17 And now when my father saw all these things, he was filled with the Spirit, and began to prophesy concerning his seed—

18 That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed.

19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.

20 And it came to pass that thus far I and my father had kept the commandments wherewith the Lord had commanded us.

21 And we had obtained the records which the Lord had commanded us, and searched them and found that they were desirable; yea, even of great worth unto us, insomuch that we could preserve the commandments of the Lord unto our children.* * *


So important the genealogy of Lehi and preserving 'the commandments of the Lord unto our [Lehi's] children' that it was worth killing Laban, certainly Nephi then preserved and included the info in the record he kept for posterity, right?

In 1 Ne 6, we hear quite a different story.

Quote:
I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.

2 For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph.
Really? That's it? God went to the trouble of commanding Nephi to kill Laban to get the brass plates with Lehi's genealogy but just to find out that Lehi was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt? God could have just revealed that fact to Nephi and spared Laban his life.
Quote:
3 And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God.
Didn't Nephi write in the immediately preceding chapter that the brass plates 'should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed' and 'never parish'? Where are those brass plates? What about Lehi's seed that are the Lamanites?

Continuing in 1 Ne 6
Quote:
4 For the fullness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
So the info on the brass plates isn't necessary to so persuade men? Then why did he kill Laban to get them? E/J/HG had the time to direct Nephi to kill Laban, when E/J/HG would simply have whispered in Nephi's ear that all that was of importance from those plates was that Lehi was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt.
Quote:
5 Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world.

6 Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.
The matters discussed on the brass plates are not of worth unto the children of men, but to get those brass plates it is worth killing Laban to get them? How is it a nation would perish in disbelief if they did not know they were descendants of Joseph of Egypt? Since that nugget is all there is, couldn't they have just given each patriarchal blessings and identified each of them as of a particular tribe in the house of Israel?

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Wasn't Lehi's genealogy written upon the large plates of Nephi/the 116 lost pages??


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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:56 pm 
God
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This is a silly question. Without the brass plates, we would not have the writings of Isaiah.


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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Right, and without the brass plates, a whole nation would have dwindled in unbelief. Wait, they dwindled in unbelief anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:02 am 
God
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The plates are worthless. All the information is contained in a rock of banded jasper, at the bottom of some top hat.

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:19 am 
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From Wikipedia:

Quote:
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The MacGuffin's importance to the plot is not the object itself, but rather its effect on the characters and their motivations. The most common type of MacGuffin is a person, place, or thing (such as money or an object of value). Other more abstract types include victory, glory, survival, power, love, or some unexplained driving force.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:44 am 
God
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sock puppet wrote:
What was on the brass plates that made them so important that E/J/HG (if real) would order Nephi to kill Laban to get them?


This is an easy question to answer....Joseph Smith needed an excuse to fill his Book of Mormon with Bible verses to add pages and volume to the book....so he used the story line of the imaginary brass plates as a segway device to get the Bible verses he needed to fill his book into the Book of Mormon.

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:23 am 
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Hmm, the first manufacture of brass was by the Greeks around 100 BC. Wasn't this whole Laban thing supposed to take place around 600 BC?

It seems there is a 500 year problem here.

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:30 am 
God
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Quasimodo wrote:
Hmm, the first manufacture of brass was by the Greeks around 100 BC. Wasn't this whole Laban thing supposed to take place around 600 BC?

It seems there is a 500 year problem here.



Stop that...Facts and reality don't matter when we are having a discussion about Mormonism...shame on you.

Edit to add: About 1400 B.C. there is discovered the brass, alloy of copper and zinc, which presents an excellent behavior opposite to the deformation, besides a great malleability in cold and in warm. It is resistant to the corrosion and to the wear.

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:36 am 
Bell Ringer
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:
Hmm, the first manufacture of brass was by the Greeks around 100 BC. Wasn't this whole Laban thing supposed to take place around 600 BC?

It seems there is a 500 year problem here.



Stop that...Facts and reality don't matter when we are having a discussion about Mormonism...shame on you.

Edit to add: About 1400 B.C. there is discovered the brass, alloy of copper and zinc, which presents an excellent behavior opposite to the deformation, besides a great malleability in cold and in warm. It is resistant to the corrosion and to the wear.


Where does that quote come from? I found references to very small amounts of brass made by accident before 100 BC (rarely, small amounts of zinc are found in some copper ores), but no brass industry.

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 Post subject: Re: The worth of Laban's brass plates?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:05 am 
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Maybe it is a Tapirism, brass wasn't really brass, and plates weren't really plates.

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