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 Post subject: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Have you read No Man Knows My History?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Huh. Interesting. A few questions if you don't mind because I'm not sure how one reads that book and comes away with a testimony that polygamy was inspired of god, and that Joseph Smith and BY were men of god.

https://i.redd.it/7dk2tychyvkz.jpg

Chapter 21 - If a man entice a maiden

pgs 306 & 307, Martha Brotherton's testimony and subsequent move to St. Louis

1) What is your impression of Joseph Smith and BY after reading those two pages, and would you mind fleshing out some of your impressions after doing so?

2) Why do you think Martha Brotherton felt the need to distribute a testimony of the incident in and around Nauvoo?

3) Why did the Brothertons "in high dudgeon" (highly offended) go to St. Louis?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Huh. Interesting.


Hey Doctor CamNC4Me,

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? Why did you steal my words and essentially try to make them your own?

There is some weird stuff going on.

Go here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47022&start=63

and here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47010&start=84

Can another poster...you... steal/copy my original content/writing...make it their own...and then actually copyright it?

This sounds really flaky. I'm assuming it's a joke of some kind? Weird.

What's the deal? Are you cool with this?

Martha Brotherton was a dupe of John C. Bennett.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:24 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Can (someone) steal/copy (someone's) original content/writing...make it their own...and then actually copyright it?

MG, interesting question. How does this work with the Book of Mormon?


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:51 pm 
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MG,

Your links don't make any sense. In fact, one of the links is you quoting yourself. So, I have no idea what you're getting at.

Would you mind engaging the OP?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
MG,
So, I have no idea what you're getting at.


BS.You're stealing my words, making them your own...and then saying you have some kind of a copyright on them. It's not rocket science. What's your game?

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Would you mind engaging the OP?


I did. Twice.

Answer my questions. My links do go to the appropriate pages. You've been playing coy and being evasive.

I'm accusing you of stealing what belongs to me. Aren't you willing to defend yourself? Protect and/or stand up for your good name, man.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Quote:
Aren't you willing to defend yourself? Protect and/or stand up for your good name, man.

:rolleyes: The Doc's good name is evident in his posts, he has no need to "protect" anything. That's your schtick.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Would you mind engaging the OP?

I agree. Those two pages were quite an interesting read. No mention of Bennett, but I see FairMormon ties him in to her story by saying Bennett also said he was "locked in a room"?! I'll have to do some more reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:25 pm 
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MG,

Would you be good enough to read the following from Martha Brotherton, and maybe tell me what your impression of her story is?

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/mo/miscstl2.htm

Quote:
ST. LOUIS, July 13th, A. D. 1842.
Gen. John C. Bennett.


DEAR SIR:

-- I left Warsaw a short time since for this city, and having been called upon by you, through the "Sangamo Journal," to come out and disclose to the world the facts of the case in relation to certain propositions made to me at Nauvoo, by some of the Mormon leaders, I now proceed to respond to the call, and discharge what I consider to be a duty devolving upon me as an innocent, but insulted and abused female. I had been at Nauvoo near three weeks, during which time my father's family received frequent visits from elders Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, two of the Mormon apostles; when early one morning they both came to my brother-in-law's (John McIlwrick's) house, at which place I then was on a visit, and particularly requested me to go and spend a few days with them. I told them I could not at that time, as my brother-in-law was not at home; however, they urged me to go the next day, and spend one day with them -- the day being fine I accordingly went.

When I arrived at the foot of the hill Young and Kimball were standing conversing together. They both came to me, and, after several flattering compliments, Kimball wished me to go to his house first. I said it was immaterial to me, and accordingly went. We had not, however, gone many steps when Young suddenly stopped, and said he would go to that brother's, (pointing to a little log hut a few yards distant) and tell him that you (speaking to Kimball,) and brother Glover, or Grover, (I do not remember which,) will value his land. When he had gone, Kimball turned to me and said, "Martha, I want you to say to my wife, when you go to my house, that you want to buy some things at Joseph's store, (Joseph Smith's) and I will say, I am going with you to show you the way. You know you want to see the Prophet, and you will then have an opportunity." I made no reply. Young again made his appearance, and the subject was dropped.

We soon reached Kimball's house, where Young took his leave, saying, "I shall see you again, Martha." I remained at Kimball's near an hour, when Kimball seeing that I would not tell the lies he wished me to, told them to his wife himself. He then went and whispered in her ear, and asked if that would please her. "Yes," said she, "or I can go along with you and Martha." "No,' said he, "I have some business to do, and I will call for you afterwards to go with me to the debate," meaning the debate between yourself and Joseph. To this she consented. So Kimball and I went to the store together. As we were going along, he said, "Sister Martha, are you willing to do all that the Prophet requires you to do?" I said I believed I was, thinking of course he would require nothing wrong. "Then," said he, "are you ready to take counsel?" I answered in the affirmative, thinking of the great and glorious blessings that had been pronounced upon my head, if I adhered to the counsel of those placed over me in the Lord.

"Well," said he, "there are many things revealed in these last days that the world would laugh and scoff at; but unto us is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom." He further observed, "Martha, you must learn to hold your tongue, and it will be well with you. -- You will see Joseph, and very likely have some conversation with him, and he will tell you what you shall do." When we reached the building he led me up some stairs to a small room, the door of which was locked, and on it the following inscription: -- "Positively no admittance." He observed, "Ah! brother Joseph must be sick, for, strange to say, he is not here. Come down into the tithing-office, Martha."

He then left me in the tithing-office and went out, I know not where. In this office were two men writing, one of whom, William Clayton, I had seen in England; the other I did not know. Young came in and seated himself before me, and asked where Kimball was. I said he had gone out. He said it was all right. Soon after Joseph came in and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs followed by Young. Immediately after Kimball came in.

"Now, Martha," said he, "the Prophet has come; come up stairs." I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?"

My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not."

"Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here to-day, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it." "Sir," said I, "I should not like to do any thing of the kind without the permission of my parents." "Well, but," said he, "you are of age, are you not?" "No, sir," said I, "I shall not be until the 24th of May." "Well," said he, "that does not make any difference. You will be of age before they know, and you need not fear. If you will take my counsel it will be well with you, for I know it to be right before God, and if there is any sin in it, I will answer for it. But brother Joseph wishes to have some talk with you on the subject -- he will explain things -- will you hear him?" "I do not mind," said I. "Well, but I want you to say something," said he. "I want time to think about it," said I.

"Well," said he, "I will have a kiss, any how," and then rose and said he would bring Joseph. -- He then unlocked the door, and took the key and locked me up alone. He was absent about ten minutes and then returned with Joseph. "Well," said Young, "sister Martha would be willing if she knew if was lawful and right before God." "Well, Martha," said Joseph, "it is lawful and right before God -- I know it is. Look here, sis; don't you believe in me?" I did not answer. -- "Well Martha," said Joseph, "just go ahead, and do as Brigham wants you to -- he is the best man in the world except me." "Oh!" said Brigham, "then you are as good." "Yes," said Joseph. "Well," said Young, "we believe Joseph to be a Prophet. -- I have known him near eight years, and always found him the same." "Yes," said Joseph, "and I know that this is lawful and right before God, and if there is any sin in it, I will answer for it before God; and I have the keys of the kingdom, and whatever I bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever I loose on earth is loosed in heaven; and if you will accept of Brigham, you shall be blessed -- God shall bless you, and my blessing shall rest upon you, and if you will be led by him, you will do well; for I know Brigham will take care of you, and if he don't do his duty to you, come to me and I will make him; and if you do not like it in a month or two, come to me, and I will make you free again; and if he turns you off, I will take you on."

-- "Sir," said I, rather warmly, "it will be too late to think in a month or two after. I want time to think first." "Well, but," said he, "the old proverb is, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained;' and it would be the greatest blessing that was ever bestowed upon you." -- "Yes," said Young, "and you will never have reason to repent it -- that is, if I do not turn from righteousness, and that I trust I never shall, for I believe God, who has kept me so long, will continue to keep me faithful. Did you ever see me act in any way wrong in England, Martha?" "No, sir," said I. "No," said he; "neither can any one else lay any thing to my charge." "Well, then," said Joseph, "what are you afraid of, sis? -- come, let me do the business for you." "Sir," said I, "do let me have a little time to think about it, and I will promise not to mention it to any one." "Well, but look here," said he, "you know a fellow will never be damned for doing the best he knows how." "Well, then," said I, "the best way I know of, is to go home and think and pray about it."

-- "Well," said Young, "I shall leave it with brother Joseph, whether it would be best for you to have time or not." "Well," said Joseph, "I see no harm in her having time to think, if she will not fall into temptation." "O, sir," said I, "there is no fear of my falling into temptation." "Well, but," said Brigham, "you must promise me you will never mention it to any one." "I do promise it," said I. "Well," said Joseph, "you must promise me the same." I promised him the same. "Upon your honor," said he, "you will not tell." "No, sir, I will lose my life first," said I. "Well, that will do," said he; "that is the principle we go upon. I think I can trust you, Martha," said he.

-- "Yes," said I, "I think you ought." Joseph said, "she looks as if she could keep a secret." I then rose to go, when Joseph commenced to beg of me again -- he said it was the best opportunity they might have for months, for the room was often engaged. I, however, had determined what to do.

-- "Well," said Young, "I will see you to-morrow. I am going to preach at the school-house, opposite your house. I have never preached there yet; you will be there, I suppose." "Yes," said I. The next day being Sunday, I sat down, instead of going to meeting, and wrote the conversation, and gave it to my sister, who was not a little surprised, but she said it would be best to go to meeting in the afternoon. We went, and Young administered the sacrament. After it was over, I was passing out, and Young stopped me, saying, "Wait, Martha, I am coming." I said, "I cannot; my sister is waiting for me." He then threw his coat over his shoulders, and followed me out, and whispered, "have you made up your mind, Martha?" "Not exactly, sir," said I; and we parted. I shall proceed to a justice of the peace, and make oath to the truth of these statements, and you are at liberty to make what use of them you may think best.

Yours, respectfully,

MARTHA H. BROTHERTON.

Sworn to and subscribed before me, this 13th day of July, A. D. 1842.

Du. BOUFFAY FREMON,

Justice of the Peace for St. Louis county.


Note 1: Martha H. Brotherton (1824- c.1870) was raised in Manchester, England, and came to America early in 1842 with several other Mormon converts. After Martha's death Brigham Young had her sealed to him "for eternity," in a proxy marriage carried out in Utah. Martha's sister, Elizabeth Brotherton (1816-1897) married Parley P. Pratt at Nauvoo in 1843, becoming that LDS Apostle's second polygamous wife. On Apr. 20, 1842 Elizabeth Brotherton made out a statement in which she said: "I suppose, by this time, you will have heard that my parents and sister have apostatized... my sister has told some of the greatest lies that ever were circulated." This statement was published with her signature in the LDS Church's pamphlet, Affidavits and Certificates Disproving the Statements and Affidavits Contained in John C. Bennett's Letter. In these statements Martha Brotherton was branded a liar and a prostitute. The Nauvoo Wasp, of Aug. 27, 1842 spoke of "mean harlots as Martha H. Brotherton," and it quickly became the policy of the elders of the Church not to respond to Martha's allegations, since statements such as hers had come from "prostitutes" (see, for example, comments attributed to Elder William Small and Thomas Smethurst's indignant response, in the Pittsburgh Morning Chronicle of July 27, 1842). Nearly a decade later, LDS Elder Thomas Smith continued to refute claims of polygamy among the Mormons, writing in the Church's official newspaper: "12th LIE: Joseph Smith taught a system of polygamy... 13th LIE: That Joseph Smith tried to seduce Martha Brotherton... Martha Brotherton's sister sent a letter, stating that Martha was a liar; William Clayton did the same. Both are published in the Millennial Star, Vol. 3, pages 73, 74." (LDS Millennial Star, XII -- Jan. 15, 1850 -- pp. 29-31).

Note 2: John C. Bennett solicited the statement of Miss Martha Brotherton during the second week of July, while he was visiting St. Louis. Miss Brotherton's statement was originally intended for publication in the prestigious, high-circulation Missouri Republican. In its issue of July 15, 1842 the Republican stated that Bennett's expose materials were not printed, due to lack of space. They were instead published in the July 14 and 16, 1842 issues of the Native American Bulletin. The Brotherton statement was widely reprinted in many other U. S. newspapers; see, for example, the Warsaw Signal of July 23, 1842. the Louisville Journal of July, 25, 1842; the New York Herald of July 25, 1842; the Alton Telegraph of July 30, 1842, and the Quincy Whig of Aug. 6, 1842. It was through the wide circulation of this statement that the secret Mormon polygamy at Nauvoo first received nation-wide attention. Bennett supplies essentially the same information from Brotherton on pp. 236-240 of his 1842 book, History of the Saints.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:32 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Can (someone) steal/copy (someone's) original content/writing...make it their own...and then actually copyright it?

MG, interesting question. How does this work with the Book of Mormon?


Hi canpakes, my interest at this time is in reference to Doctor CamNC4Me and why he did what he did.

Do you think that he may have gone a bit 'off the rails'?

So far, he has been unwilling to respond.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
The Doc's good name is evident in his posts, he has no need to "protect" anything.


I don't trust your judgment, Lemmie. I would just as well he speak for himself. So far, he hasn't.

The fact that he would steal my original content/words and make them his own and then put some kind of purported 'copyright' on those words is...well, a bit wacky.

Do you really believe that I've done something illegal? :wink: If so, could you...along with Doctor CamNC4Me...clue me/us in on exactly why you believe this to be so?

Thanks,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:39 pm 
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You're derailing this thread, MG, when you already have a thread that you started devoted to the issue you're using to derail this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
You're derailing this thread, MG, when you already have a thread that you started devoted to the issue you're using to derail this thread.


Yeah, I was responding to Lemmie's post.

I've already responded to Doctor CamNC4Me. A few years ago I participated in a thread having to do with John C. Bennett/Brotherton. I'm not really that interested in going the rounds again. Although I did a search and couldn't find that old thread.

Maybe someone else can?

If others want rehash this topic again, that's fine. Where Doctor CamNC4Me decided this thread needed to have my input, I gave minimal input...which succinctly gives my viewpoint based on research I did years ago. Martha Brotherton was a dupe of John C. Bennett.

If others want to continue on down this road responding to Doctor CamNC4Me's question, go for it. As far as I'm concerned, it's water under the bridge.

Thanks for stepping in, Jersey. What would we do without you to keep us in line? :wink:

BTW, if you're at all disposed, I would be interested in hearing what you think about Doctor CamNC4Me's antics.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:49 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

BTW, if you're at all disposed, I would be interested in hearing what you think about Doctor CamNC4Me's antics.


What do I think about his antics? I think he found himself a good mentor. Not that he really needs one, mind you.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 03#p482603

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:

BTW, if you're at all disposed, I would be interested in hearing what you think about Doctor CamNC4Me's antics.


What do I think about his antics? I think he found himself a good mentor. Not that he really needs one, mind you.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 03#p482603

:lol: awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:

BTW, if you're at all disposed, I would be interested in hearing what you think about Doctor CamNC4Me's antics.


What do I think about his antics? I think he found himself a good mentor. Not that he really needs one, mind you.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 03#p482603


Were your words stolen and used by another under the cover of copyright?

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:06 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

Were your words stolen and used by another under the cover of copyright?

Regards,
MG


Nope.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Hi MG,

Would you explain how you came to the conclusion Martha Brotherton was Mr. Bennett's foil?

Respectfully,

Dr. CamNC4Me

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Martha Brotherton WAS NOT a "dupe" of John C. Bennett. But she was a pretty smart cookie. Mental doesn't know what he's talking about, once again... and I read through the other Brotherton thread and you're as wrong there as you are here. I've resurrected it for other's enjoyment and to show how ignorant you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:06 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
MG,

Would you be good enough to...tell me what your impression of [Martha Brotherton's] story is?



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8449

Regards,
MG


As per Dr. Shades policy you're not supposed to link and run. So, I didn't click on the link. Please address the OP, MG.

- Doc

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In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago


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 Post subject: Re: Question for MG
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:33 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6068
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Please address the OP, MG.

- Doc


Nope.

I already have in the "blast from the past" link.

Thing is, Doc, you've lost whatever trust I may have had in you. A relationship/conversation is built on trust, IMO. I don't think we have any where we can go except into a cul-de-sac where we will simply go round and round.

There have become fewer and fewer people here that I believe I can trust, from some of the experiences I've endured and/or had to put up with in the last few months. There are some folks, however, that I am willing to engage because we generally remain civil to each other. And that's what makes things enjoyable, and even fun. :smile:

Civility/trust is at the foundation of any good dialogue. If it's not there, I don't believe a productive conversation can take place. I suppose that's why I'm hammering you so hard, I was hoping you would just own up to your antics and move on. You didn't. You won't. You'll simply play dumb and/or deflect.

We can't have a discussion under those circumstances.

Have a nice day,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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