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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:01 am 
God

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Themis wrote:

You have still not answered if you believe God cannot sin because no action God does is a sin...


This would be the default position of anyone who believes in an all wise, benevolent creator/God. That would be my position, yes.

Themis wrote:
,,,or because you believe God, while capable of sinning, never would.


That, I believe also.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:01 am 
God

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:

You have still not answered if you believe God cannot sin because no action God does is a sin...


This would be the default position of anyone who believes in an all wise, benevolent creator/God. That would be my position, yes.

Themis wrote:
,,,or because you believe God, while capable of sinning, never would.


That, I believe also.

Regards,
MG


The two positions are not the same. You are telling me you believe two conflicting positions. It's also not the default position, and any action God does is not a sin because God is God does not establish God as either wise or benevolent. In fact it opens up a God to be able to be the opposite of benevolent. This God could command a group of people to kill another group of people, including all men, women, children, and animals and it would not be a sin, and this God would not be benevolent. This God could send a bear to kill children and it would not be a sin, and it would not be benevolent. Now a benevolent God who has certain actions that would be sins would of course choose not to do those actions. This is the God the LDS church teaches, not the first one you brought up. I would argue this God would never command someone to kill their son, or groups of people, or have bears go out and kill children because they mocked some old guy. Funny how so many religions like LDS have so much trouble being consistent with themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:12 am 
God

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Themis wrote:

You have still not answered if you believe God cannot sin because no action God does is a sin...


MG wrote:
This would be the default position of anyone who believes in an all wise, benevolent creator/God. That would be my position, yes.


Themis wrote:
,,,or because you believe God, while capable of sinning, never would.


MG wrote:
That, I believe also.


Themis wrote:
The two positions are not the same. You are telling me you believe two conflicting positions.


To me...and I would suspect many others...they're not.

I am happy to agree to disagree. I realize that it is possible to use rhetorical philosophical flourishes to keep your ideas alive.

I start at the default of there being an all wise, benevolent creator/God...and go from there. I take the Abraham/Isaac story in the Bible as having a foundation in real events. When I add the two together, I come up with the result. The two positions don't contradict each other.

It all depends on where you're starting from.

It's pretty simple really. :smile:

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:15 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

To me...and I would suspect many others...they're not.



They are by definition. One, God can sin but chooses not to. The other God cannot sin no matter what he does.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:27 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
ding ding ding we have a winner....No human being has ever talked with God...that's a fact. . . .
It is a fact that you disbelieve; but that does not make you disbelief a fact. You should learn to tell the difference between the two.
Quote:
So zerinus, Men are in fact telling you what to do...and you do it because you believe it is from god...when in fact it IS from man
Says you. But that does not make it a fact.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:28 am 
God

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Themis wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:

To me...and I would suspect many others...they're not.



They are by definition. One, God can sin but chooses not to. The other God cannot sin no matter what he does.


I appreciate your POV. I happen to think you are mistaken. I am happy to simply agree to disagree knowing that we have opposite points of view.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:36 am 
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Shulem wrote:
They tell you what to do. When the bishop extends a call, you DO it. When the stake president says you need to do something, you DO it. When the First Presidency gives a directive, you DO it.

Period. You do as your bishop tells you. You are his little poodle and he is the master. He speaks for god for you and you will obey. By the way, a servant of god is also a SLAVE. You serve him because you're his slave and the bishop's little poodle.

ruff. ruff.

:lol:
They are also servants of God too, and do what God tells them to do. The Church of God requires work to be done in it, and they assign Church members to do what is required. But they are still doing God's work, and what God wants them to do.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:43 am 
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Shulem wrote:
Exactly. And he will obey the voice of his bishop and other church leaders or else! . . .
Wrong! If I didn't want to do a calling, and refused to accept it, nothing untowards would happen. I would still remain a member of the Church in good standing.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:48 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:
ding ding ding we have a winner....No human being has ever talked with God...that's a fact. . . .
It is a fact that you disbelieve; but that does not make you disbelief a fact. You should learn to tell the difference between the two.
Quote:
So zerinus, Men are in fact telling you what to do...and you do it because you believe it is from god...when in fact it IS from man
Says you. But that does not make it a fact.


You have a fact for us Z-boy? Show us.


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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:57 am 
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Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.
There are false gods and false religions as well as true ones. In the says of Abraham there were false gods and false religions which practised human sacrifices. But there was also a true God and true religion. Your argument amounts to saying that just because there are false Gods and false religions, therefore there cannot be true ones. That is just bad logic. It is not true.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:00 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.
There are false gods and false religions as well as true ones. In the says of Abraham there were false gods and false religions which practised human sacrifices. But there was also a true God and true religion. Your argument amounts to saying that just because there are false Gods and false religions, therefore there cannot be true ones. That is just bad logic. It is not true.


Special pleading for your own particular fantasy again? Talk about bad logic. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:01 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
You have a fact for us Z-boy? Show us.
Yes. It is a fact that God lives, and he has restored his true Church on earth in our time.

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Last edited by zerinus on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:05 am 
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Not a fact. You lose. :lol:

Silly Z boy. Talk talk talk. Too bad you never took any science or history classes.


Last edited by Maksutov on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:07 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Not a fact. You lose.
It is a fact. You lose.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:08 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Not a fact. You lose.
It is a fact. You lose.


Rubber, glue. How old are you? :lol: Ah yes, your religion loves adults to be children. So fortunate for you.

You have no evidence but your burning bosom. Very impressive to you. Convinces no one else. No facts, no evidence, no case. No sale. Too bad. You're just another cult enthusiast. Why don't you become an online missionary for the church? Because not even the church wants you, or you would be. No, you're too erratic and silly even for that. Must bother you a lot. :wink: So you come here to take it out on us, eh? Poor rejected little Z boy. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:43 am 
God

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:
They are by definition. One, God can sin but chooses not to. The other God cannot sin no matter what he does.


I appreciate your POV. I happen to think you are mistaken. I am happy to simply agree to disagree knowing that we have opposite points of view.

Regards,
MG


I'm not making a statement that can be right or wrong. I am asking which you believe. You cannot believe both, because they are opposites. One God can sin, but chooses not to or one God cannot sin no matter what God does. I'm not talking whether God exists, or which I believe in, so this is not about opposite POV. I'm asking which God you believe in order to understand your position. You cannot believe in both. To say you do is to say God can sin and God cannot sin.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:46 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.
There are false gods and false religions as well as true ones. In the says of Abraham there were false gods and false religions which practised human sacrifices. But there was also a true God and true religion. Your argument amounts to saying that just because there are false Gods and false religions, therefore there cannot be true ones. That is just bad logic. It is not true.


My argument says nothing about whether there are true or false religions or whether there are true or false Gods. It is about the idea of obedience to any false or true God no matter what they command that leads good people to do bad things. Everyone thinks their God is the true one.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Themis wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:


I appreciate your POV. I happen to think you are mistaken. I am happy to simply agree to disagree knowing that we have opposite points of view.

Regards,
MG


I'm not making a statement that can be right or wrong. I am asking which you believe. You cannot believe both, because they are opposites. One God can sin, but chooses not to or one God cannot sin no matter what God does. I'm not talking whether God exists, or which I believe in, so this is not about opposite POV. I'm asking which God you believe in order to understand your position. You cannot believe in both. To say you do is to say God can sin and God cannot sin.


Ignoring contradicting ideas is a core fundamental of being religious. The better you are at ignoring the contradictions, the better you are at religion.


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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:07 pm 
Sunbeam

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zerinus wrote:
Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.
There are false gods and false religions as well as true ones. In the says of Abraham there were false gods and false religions which practised human sacrifices. But there was also a true God and true religion. Your argument amounts to saying that just because there are false Gods and false religions, therefore there cannot be true ones. That is just bad logic. It is not true.


Lol, the god of Abraham commanded Abraham to perform a human sacrifice! Yeah, yeah, I know - it was just a test. A sick, f***ed-up test.

When it comes to the tall tale of Abraham almost murdering his own son, I don't know which is more f***ed-up - that god told Abraham to do it or that Abraham almost did it. What a crazy story.


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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Themis wrote:
My argument says nothing about whether there are true or false religions or whether there are true or false Gods.
I know it doesn’t. That is what is wrong with it. It fails to make a discussion where a distinction is required.
Quote:
It is about the idea of obedience to any false or true God no matter what they command that leads good people to do bad things. Everyone thinks their God is the true one.
Bad logic. You are saying that just because there are false gods and false religions, there cannot be true ones either; and obeying a true religion and a true God is just as bad as obeying a false one. That is just bad logic. The two are simply not the same.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:27 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Bad logic. You are saying that just because there are false gods and false religions, there cannot be true ones either; and obeying a true religion and a true God is just as bad as obeying a false one. That is just bad logic. The two are simply not the same.


How, specifically, can one reliably differentiate between a false religion, and a true one?

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