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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:31 pm 
God

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mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:

Afraid to answer the question? You seem to think God can do whatever God likes without it being a sin.


Themis, we will continue to talk past each other on this topic. You disbelieve in a creator/God. I believe in a creator/God.

You're talking about a God you don't even believe exists. Where is there to go from there?

Oh, BTW, I can't prove to you that God exists.

Regards,
MG


But that is not what I am asking. Do you think God has the ability to choose to sin, or is it that you believe God cannot sin because anything God does for any reason would never be a sin because God is God?

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Laugh away in your cult fantasy. Pay your hard earned money to the church and do as you're told. Do as the cult tells you. Kneel down and obey. You are their slave.

:lol:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:46 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Shulem wrote:
Laugh away in your cult fantasy. Pay your hard earned money to the church and do as you're told. Do as the cult tells you. Kneel down and obey. You are their slave.

:lol:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:


Except the guys that wrote the stuff that you think God said. :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:17 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
zerinus wrote:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:


Except the guys that wrote the stuff that you think God said. :biggrin:


ding ding ding we have a winner....No human being has ever talked with God...that's a fact. What we do have however are men claiming to have talk with a god and written the words that are in their own minds, put them on paper and claim that they are gods words. Or we have men who claim to speak for god, share the words in their own minds as if they are from god, speak them others write these words down and claim they are gods words spoken through that man. God has never appeared to man face to face and delivered a speech in front of a large public forum. He can only speak through men who claim to be speaking for this mystical figure.

So zerinus, Men are in fact telling you what to do...and you do it because you believe it is from god...when in fact it IS from man

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:54 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Shulem wrote:
Laugh away in your cult fantasy. Pay your hard earned money to the church and do as you're told. Do as the cult tells you. Kneel down and obey. You are their slave.

:lol:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:


They tell you what to do. When the bishop extends a call, you DO it. When the stake president says you need to do something, you DO it. When the First Presidency gives a directive, you DO it.

Period. You do as your bishop tells you. You are his little poodle and he is the master. He speaks for god for you and you will obey. By the way, a servant of god is also a SLAVE. You serve him because you're his slave and the bishop's little poodle.


ruff. ruff.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:58 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
So zerinus, Men are in fact telling you what to do...and you do it because you believe it is from god...when in fact it IS from man


Exactly. And he will obey the voice of his bishop and other church leaders or else! It doesn't matter whether the bishop is inspired or not. He must obey. Obedience is the FIRST law of the church and heaven.

Cult member slave! The thinking has already been done.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:51 am 
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zerinus wrote:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:


That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Themis wrote:
zerinus wrote:
I am a servant of God. I only do what God says. No man tells me what to do! :biggrin:


That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.


I totally get what you're saying here. And I agree. The question I have to ask myself is whether or not there may be 'special cases' where God is speaking to a prophet to reveal His will/commands. I personally think that Abraham/Isaac was one of those times in which He did.

You asked me if I would kill a one year old if God told me to. Here's the thing, I'm not a prophet like Abraham, Moses, or any of the modern prophets. I am 100% sure that God is not going to be messing around with me like that. :wink:

Trade Center bombers, Lafferty's, and many other examples of folks OTHER than prophets can be trotted out to show that terrorists/murderers do things under the influence of dark forces or mental instability. I am in total agreement with you that a large percentage of the murder/mayhem is perpetrated deluded and/or mentally unstable people.

I don't believe, however, that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There may be a very small percentage of instances where God has commanded prophets to do hard things. Abrahamic tests, so to speak. Abraham's was the ultimate test.

That I will concede.

Regards,
MG

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:31 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I am in total agreement with you that a large percentage of the murder/mayhem is perpetrated deluded and/or mentally unstable people.


What murder and mayhem was caused by deluded and mentally unstable people around, oh, I dunno, 160 years ago?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.


It occurred to me today that there will likely be a future day when all of humanity will give up religion and superstition and simply learn to live and love as one. The day will come when all religion will disappear and the need will no longer exist. Religious exhibits will be something had in museums where enlightened man may reminiscent those silly things that used to be so important to humankind.

It's going to be a wonderful world when all religion is finally gone and people can simply live and enjoy life in the NOW and in reality. I think it may be several hundred or even thousands of years from now, but the day will come. Religion will pass and man will advance.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Themis wrote:
That's what every religious fanatic thinks. How many people have been killed because someone really really believed God told them to kill? MG misses the real influence, this fictional story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, has on people. This idea of obedience no matter what the commands are, is found throughout many religions like Mormonism. It's one of the most evil doctrines found in religions.


It occurred to me today that there will likely be a future day when all of humanity will give up religion and superstition and simply learn to live and love as one. The day will come when all religion will disappear and the need will no longer exist. Religious exhibits will be something had in museums where enlightened man may reminiscent those silly things that used to be so important to humankind.

It's going to be a wonderful world when all religion is finally gone and people can simply live and enjoy life in the NOW and in reality. I think it may be several hundred or even thousands of years from now, but the day will come. Religion will pass and man will advance.


Not as long as God exists. :wink: Oh, BTW, man will continue to advance, even with religion. Things have been moving along pretty well, religious folks notwithstanding.

Still hating me?

Regards,
MG

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
I am in total agreement with you that a large percentage of the murder/mayhem is perpetrated deluded and/or mentally unstable people.


What murder and mayhem was caused by deluded and mentally unstable people around, oh, I dunno, 160 years ago?

- Doc


Mountain Meadows Massacre. Ding ding ding.

I think that there were some "deluded and mentally unstable people" that participated in that horrific event. War is hell. It brings out the worst in people.

I think I know where you might be going with this...but go for it, if you must.

Or you could simply steal my words from a previous post somewhere and cut and paste them in response. :wink: You've got that down pretty good.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:28 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I think I know where you might be going with this...but go for it, if you must.

Or you could simply steal my words from a previous post somewhere and cut and paste them in response. :wink: You've got that down pretty good.

Regards,
MG

Or he could take your usual approach and misquote....
mentalgymnast wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
blah, blah, blah

The words I am using in the above statement do not represent Lemmie's words, I have dishonestly misrepresented her by changing her words inside a quote box and my misquoting of her is illegal and unethical.

I may/did/will/can't help but take offense at my own intellectual dishonesty the/this/any/all/every single time. To be less obnoxious-slash-whiny than this repeated post shows would take too much original thought-slash-work. I can't decide which.

I have reported my own post just like I report every other post I take offense at, to show I am a humorless liar. Besides I only report posts that are written by purveyors of sin. I KNOW they are.

[inappropriate use of winkie face here.]

Regerts,

MentalGymnasTee

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:54 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
The words I am using in the above statement do not represent Lemmie's words...


It would have been better if I would have given some degree of credence/recognition to your words and quoted them first...and then did the blah, blah, blah thing to represent the fact that I think most of what you have to contribute is meaningless tripe.

In the future I will show you the respect due to you (for the time you've spent writing the post) by quoting your words...including my words often taken out of context...before I represent it all as being what I see it as.

Regards,
MG

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:09 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I totally get what you're saying here. And I agree. The question I have to ask myself is whether or not there may be 'special cases' where God is speaking to a prophet to reveal His will/commands. I personally think that Abraham/Isaac was one of those times in which He did.


This story is all about teaching people obedience to God no matter what. The principle is taught by the LDS church and most of Christianity. No where in these teachings does it say it is a special case only for prophets.

Quote:
You asked me if I would kill a one year old if God told me to. Here's the thing, I'm not a prophet like Abraham, Moses, or any of the modern prophets. I am 100% sure that God is not going to be messing around with me like that. :wink:


Your'e avoiding the question. I understand you don't believe God will ever ask you to. I was asking if he did would you do it? I am still curious of your view of God and sin. Can God not sin because God is God and anything God does is right, or is it that you think there are things that would be a sin for God to do but you think God would never do them? This is why I asked if God killed a one year old child for fun if it would be a sin? Since you believe in an afterlife maybe we could change it to God torturing a child for fun. Would that be a sin?

Quote:
Trade Center bombers, Lafferty's, and many other examples of folks OTHER than prophets can be trotted out to show that terrorists/murderers do things under the influence of dark forces or mental instability. I am in total agreement with you that a large percentage of the murder/mayhem is perpetrated deluded and/or mentally unstable people.


Part of the influence is the teaching we find in religions like LDS of obedience to God no matter what God commands.

Quote:
I don't believe, however, that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There may be a very small percentage of instances where God has commanded prophets to do hard things. Abrahamic tests, so to speak. Abraham's was the ultimate test.


That's the one teaching that really really really needs to be thrown out. If God is so powerful he/she can do what ever they like. A good God does not need to ask for complete obedience, and would understand why it is such a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:12 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
It would have been better if I would have given some degree of credence/recognition to your words and quoted them first...and then did the blah, blah, blah thing

So if in your mind you have a good reason, then using my quote is ok. Got it.

Hey Doc! You have a good reason, keep quoting mentalgymnast!
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Your response does not lend itself to a productive/civil conversation and/or discussion. It does lead us down a road that ultimately leads to a cul-de-sac/dead end where we find ourselves going round and round wasting each other's time. Rather than leading us in an unproductive/uncivil direction, you might want to add substantively to the discussion?

Regards,

Doc

© 2017 Doctor CamNC4Me. All rights reserved. Copying, quoting, or citing this copyrighted work in whole or part without the written permission of the author is prohibited. Violation of this copyright, even for personal or not-for-profit use, is a serious criminal offense and is subject to federal prosecution.


Last edited by Lemmie on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:14 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Mountain Meadows Massacre. Ding ding ding.

I think that there were some "deluded and mentally unstable people" that participated in that horrific event. War is hell. It brings out the worst in people.

I think I know where you might be going with this...but go for it, if you must.

Or you could simply steal my words from a previous post somewhere and cut and paste them in response. :wink: You've got that down pretty good.

Regards,
MG


If there were only some, then there were others who were not. Fanaticism makes good people do bad things. Teaching the devout to obey all commands is how good people end up doing bad things. This event was not a war. It was a mass murder. These people did not come after them, and they killed them after they surrendered, including children deemed old enough to be good witnesses of the event.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
It would have been better if I would have given some degree of credence/recognition to your words and quoted them first...and then did the blah, blah, blah thing

So if in your mind you have a good reason, then using my quotes is ok. Got it.


If you say something that I believe to be a bunch of tripe, I will do you the courtesy of quoting you first and then giving my opinion. Which may consist of saying simply:

blah, blah, blah.

Truly, that's what I see much of what you have to say as being. Puffs of air, and very little else. You have really given me no other choice but to say that. I would love to think otherwise, and at times have tried to give you the benefit of a doubt hoping beyond hope that you might come around to being a bit more civil. Your track record now speaks for itself.

There have been very few posters that I would ever say this to, in these words. But, as I said...I think it was to DocCam...sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and tell it like it is.

Regards,
MG

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Themis wrote:

Fanaticism makes good people do bad things.


Agreed.

Themis wrote:
Teaching the devout to obey all commands is how good people end up doing bad things.


That can happen.

Themis wrote:
This event was not a war. It was a mass murder.


I think the Mormons thought they were still at war with the Missourians. I think the general climate in Utah at the time was also a bit immersed in war mentality...with the native people that had already been here.

Themis wrote:
These people did not come after them, and they killed them after they surrendered, including children deemed old enough to be good witnesses of the event.


Yes, that is true.

A truly sad and inexcusable time/event in early Mormon history.

There are teachings, I admit, that when taken to the extreme by people who for one reason or another are not quite mentally stable can result in bad things happening to good people. Especially if those 'promptings' and/or feelings are not based in actual revelation/inspiration. And that IS where it gets rather muddy and messy. I'm not going to argue with that.

Regards,
MG

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:06 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

There are teachings, I admit, that when taken to the extreme by people who for one reason or another are not quite mentally stable can result in bad things happening to good people. Especially if those 'promptings' and/or feelings are not based in actual revelation/inspiration. And that IS where it gets rather muddy and messy. I'm not going to argue with that.

Regards,
MG


Sue you don't want to make arguments about a teaching that a good God would never teach.

You have still not answered if you believe God cannot sin because no action God does is a sin or because you believe God, while capable of sinning, never would.

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 Post subject: Re: A Test on The POWER of Prayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:01 am 
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Themis wrote:
If there were only some, then there were others who were not. Fanaticism makes good people do bad things. Teaching the devout to obey all commands is how good people end up doing bad things. This event was not a war. It was a mass murder. These people did not come after them, and they killed them after they surrendered, including children deemed old enough to be good witnesses of the event.


It's part of the restoration of all things in which the Latter-day Saints were acting like Old Testament Saints -- cruel, barbaric, murderous, and loved to breathe out the threatening punishments of Jehovah, the real monster of the bible. They were just doing their duty and what they desired. Kill and murder those who refuse to conform like themselves and who refuse to bow the knee to Mormon Jesus.

Christians are expecting their Jesus to burn sinners and nonbelievers. Christians take pleasure knowing that Jesus is going to punish us and throw us in the flames while they pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for being so righteous and faithful. That's all part of being a bible Christian. I honestly believe that the religion spawned from the bible is founded upon murder and torture. It's so sick. It's a plague.

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