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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 pm 
Dragon
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Malissa Lott,

Quote:
227 Q. Did you ever room with Joseph Smith as his wife? A. Yes sir.
228 Q. At what place? A. At Nauvoo
229 Q. What place in Nauvoo? A. The Nauvoo Mansion.
230 Q. At what place in the Mansion? A. Do you want to know the number of the room, or what?
231 Q. Well just what part of the house the room was in if you can give it? A. Well I can give it and the number of the room too. It was room number one.
232 [sic] Q. Room number one? A. Yes sir.
233 Q. Who else roomed there? A. I don’t know of any one.
234 Q. Where was Emma Smith at that time? A. I don’t know I didn’t ask where she was.
235 Q. Did you know where she was at that time? A. No sir I didn’t.
236 Q. Did she know where you were at that time? A. I did not ask her whether she did or not.
237 Q. So you roomed with him in the Nauvoo Mansion in room number one? A. Yes sir.
238 Q. That was the house that Joseph Smith lived in was it not? A. Yes sir.
239 Q. And you don’t know whether Emma Smith was in the house or not? A. No sir.
240 Q. And you can’t say whether she knew where you were? A. No sir. I couldn’t say where she was, and I don’t know that she knew about me, for I did not speak to her.
241 Q. Well she was at home? A. Yes sir.
242 Q. How do you know? A. She was there when I see her last.
243 Q. What time was that? A. That I saw her?
244 Q. Yes madam? A. I can’t tell you the time, If I had thought I was to be asked all these questions I might have kept a note of all these things, but as I didn’t know anything about this examination I didn’t.
245 Q. How often did you room there with Joseph Smith? A. Well that is something I can’t tell you.
246 Q. Well was it more than once? A. Yes sir, and more than twice.
247 Q. Well that is something I would like to know? A. Well there is something I would like to know. If I am to be asked these questions I would like to know if I am to answer them. I have told you all about this thing that I know, and I can’t see any reason in your worrying me with these questions, and I would like to know if I have to answer them?
248 Q. Well if you decline to answer them say so, and that will do? A. I don’t decline to answer any question that I know anything about.
249 Q. Well answer that question then? A. What is the question?
250 Q. I asked how many times you had roomed there in the house with Joseph Smith? I do not expect you to answer positively the exact number of times, but I would like to have you tell us the number of times as nearly as you can remember it? A. Well I can’t tell you. I think I have acted the part of a lady in answering your questions as well as I have, and I don’t think you are acting the part of a gentleman in asking me these questions.
251 Q. Well I will ask you the question over again in this form, --was it more than twice? A. Yes sir.
252 Q. Well How many times? A. I could not say.
253 Q. Did you ever at any other place room with him? A. In what way.
254 Q. Of course I mean as his wife? A. Yes sir.
255 Q. At what places? A. In my father’s house.


Emily Partridge,

Quote:
750 Q. And you also make the declaration that you roomed with him on the night of the 11th of May 1843? A. No sir I said that it was in my mind that that was the day that I was married to him the second time, but when you read his diary I see that I was mistake[n] and I don't say that was the date now, although it always ran in my mind that that was the time.
751 Q. Well do you make the declaration now that you ever roomed with him at any time? A. Yes sir.
752 Q. Do you make the declaration that you ever slept with him in the same bed? A. Yes sir.
753 Q. How many nights? A. One
754 Q. Only one night? A. Yes sir.
755 Q. Then you only slept with him in the same bed one night? A. Yes sir.
756 Q. Did you ever have carnal intercourse with Joseph Smith? A. Yes sir.
757 Q. How many nights? A. I could not tell you.
758 Q. Do you make the declaration that you never slept with him but one night? A. Yes sir.
759 Q. And that was the only time and place that you ever were in bed with him? A. No sir.
760 Q. Were you in bed with him at any place before that time? A. Before what time?
761 Q. Before you were married? A. No sir, not before I was married to him I never was.
762 Q. Do you mean that you were in bed with him after the 4th of March 1843? A. Yes sir, but that was after I was first married to him.
763 Q. And that was before this revelation on plural marriage was given wasn't it? A. I suppose it was.
764 Q. Now after your attention is called to the time this revelation was given on July 12th 1843, do you still insist that you were married under this revelation? A. No, I don't. I don't insist on any such a thing.
765 Q. Will you be kind enough to tell me under what revelation you were married then? A. I don't know what revelation it was, but he told me himself in so many words that he had a revelation, and that was the revelation we were married under. I just took his word for it, and I believed he had it.
766 Q. Did you see it? A. No sir I did not see it. I don't suppose it was written at that time. (p 384-385)


Temple Lot Trial Testimony. You can't exclude Helen and the others on a whim. He had sex with his young wives. SOME OF THEM SAID SO.

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"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:47 pm 
God

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Lemmie wrote:
JLHPROF wrote:
Oh for pete's sake. He also had numerous wives far older than he was.
Only two of his wives were under 16...

So if one marries multiple wives, then the relevant comparison to marriageable age is to take the average of the wive's ages?!?! :lol:

Also, it's worth thinking about that you are using the phrase "Only two of his wives were under 16" in an attempt to redeem Joseph Smith's character. Let's try that with Warren Jeffs.... Nope. Just as creepy then as now.

JLHPROF wrote:
Really? You could at least try and be reasonable.
The point to Shulem's repeated accusations is that clearly that Joseph neither targeted nor showed any preference for underage girls.
Except for the two that he married. :rolleyes: So yes, let's be reasonable. It is reasonable to conclude that Joseph Smith showed his preference for underage girls by illegally and clandestinely marrying TWO of them, while he was married to other women.
Quote:
Applying a Warren Jeff's label to Joseph's practice is an unreasonable comparison.

Why? The comparison is similar actions, with similar religious foundation, and similar claims by the perpetrators, with similar justifications.


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Except for the two that he married. :rolleyes: So yes, let's be reasonable. It is reasonable to conclude that Joseph Smith showed his preference for underage girls by illegally and clandestinely marrying TWO of them, while he was married to other women.


The variety in age and situation would seem to indicate anything but a preference. More of an determination to marry than a preference for who he married.

Lemmie wrote:
JLHPROF wrote:
Applying a Warren Jeff's label to Joseph's practice is an unreasonable comparison.

Why? The comparison is similar actions, with similar religious foundation, and similar claims by the perpetrators, with similar justifications.


Not actions. Jeff's actions and Smith's actions are demonstrably different except on the most surface appearance.

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Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:55 pm 
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JLHPROF:

Don't you see the irony in your trying to get "samuel the Lamanite" over on the other board to loosen his grip on his silly "satan changed the evidence to make the church look false" theory and your denial of Joseph Smith's sexual relations with young girls? Of course Joseph Smith had sex with his young wives, else why marry them? THEY ADMITTED SEX WITH Joseph Smith! Also, of course satan didn't change history to make Mormonism false. Mormonism proved itself false without "satan's" help.


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:00 pm 
Dragon
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Almost every single young girl that Smith married lived in his home and almost all of his "wives" were women who he stayed in their homes for a time or stayed with him. The implications of this are simply staggering. The Lawrences, the Partridges, Eliza Snow, Desdemona Fullmer, Fanny Alger, Lucinda Morgan, Sylvia Lyon, to name a few. It is simply opportunistic. And the concept of "marrying" OTHER MEN'S WIVES is simply repulsive and there is absolutely no justification for it. None. It's not that Smith was like Jeffs, but that Jeffs was like Smith.

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"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:00 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Malissa Lott
Emily Partridge


Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. You seem to want to pick an argument.
I am merely saying that there is no evidence of physical relations with Nancy and Helen outside of your previously mentioned doctrinal statement by Helen.
There is no evidence that Joseph attempted to have children or sex with either 14 year old wife.
The fact that he did with the older ones doesn't change that.

There is as much evidence that he was going to wait until they were 16 as there is that he didn't wait. Exactly zero.

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Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Quote:
Jeff's actions and Smith's actions are demonstrably different except on the most surface appearance.


Absolutely false. Absolutely. You are speaking out of your backside. You are simply downing too much apologist tripe. Cut back on that diet, and maybe you will start making some sense.

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"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:03 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Oh for pete's sake. He also had numerous wives far older than he was.
Only two of his wives were under 16 (marriageable age, even if not the average age) and there is little to no evidence of any physical relationship with them.
You love to keep posting that claim, but there is no evidence to support it.


Joe Smith loved the young ladies and he had plenty of older ones too -- but you can be sure that the youngest ones were his sweetest candies in the box.

Joe was a pervert. He had sex with those young ladies. I'm sure of it. I don't need proof that satisfies you. I just know it. I know it in my gut and the evidence I've reviewed to date convinces me that Joe had sex with little girls -- age 14.

So there. Defend your pervert if you will -- Mormons have no shame.

Pitiful.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
JLHPROF:

Don't you see the irony in your trying to get "samuel the Lamanite" over on the other board to loosen his grip on his silly "satan changed the evidence to make the church look false" theory and your denial of Joseph Smith's sexual relations with young girls? Of course Joseph Smith had sex with his young wives, else why marry them? THEY ADMITTED SEX WITH Joseph Smith! Also, of course satan didn't change history to make Mormonism false. Mormonism proved itself false without "satan's" help.


I am NOT denying Joseph's relations with his young wives. I am specifically speaking of his relationships with Helen and Nancy, the 14 year olds.
That he had relations with 19 year old Eliza as she stated I fully believe. And 19 year old Melissa.

There is no evidence after his marriage to Helen that they were ever together. Her actions in desiring to date and remaining at home with her parents are good indicators.
And we know next to nothing about his relationship with Nancy.

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Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney & Parents,

Quote:
8 for my feelings are so
9 Strong for you Since what has
10 pased lately between us, that the
11 time of my abscence from you
12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
13 it Seems, as if I could not live
if you
14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
15 come and See me in this my lonely
16 retreat, it would afford me great
17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
19 time to afford me succour; in the
20 days of exile, for you know I
21 foretold you of these things. I am
22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
24 mile from town, the nights are
25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
can
26 you come^ and See me in the
27 fore part of the night, let Brother
28 Whitney come a little a head, and
29 nock at the south East corner of
the
30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
33 can be attended to with most perfect
know
34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
me
35 should comfort ^ now in this time
36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the


[Back Side of Joseph Smith Letter]

LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER
PAGE TWO
LINE TEXT
1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
5 made known to you; the only thing
6 to be careful of, is to find out when
7 Emma comes then you cannot be
8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
9 is the most perfect Safty
: only be
10 careful to escape observation, as
11 much as possible, I know it is a
12 heroick undertaking; but so much
13 the greater friendship, and the more
will
14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
15 my plans, I cannot write them on
16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
17 read it; keep all locked up in
18 your breast...


Why would Smith need to hide an "innocent" non sexual eternity only "marriage" from his wife Emma? Why was there no "safety" when Emma was around. Especially if Joseph had the parents of Sarah in on it? This letter is simply damning to Smith. Damning. Why did Smith need to be "comforted" when he already had Emma as his wife who would have comforted him better than anyone? This makes no sense if it is just Smith craving company. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows what this is all about.

What are the justifications that Smith's "marriages" with Helen and Nancy were any different? ZERO.

_________________
"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
I've got things/stuff/jobs to do and when I'm done I may/may not choose/decide to respond/reply/post/comment again. Or not. But maybe? ~Jersey Girl


Last edited by grindael on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
JLHPROF wrote:
Oh for pete's sake. He also had numerous wives far older than he was.
Only two of his wives were under 16...

So if one marries multiple wives, then the relevant comparison to marriageable age is to take the average of the wive's ages?!?! :lol:

Also, it's worth thinking about that you are using the phrase "Only two of his wives were under 16" in an attempt to redeem Joseph Smith's character. Let's try that with Warren Jeffs.... Nope. Just as creepy then as now.


Only TWO is still TWO -- TWO little girls, tender and young, subject to the advances of a mature man who loved to manipulate women.

JOSEPH SMITH HAD SEX WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL. That's age 14! That's a very young cherry and Joe was no doubt the first man to pop it behind his wife's back. He was a disgusting man and a pervert. A dirty old man.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Only TWO is still TWO -- TWO little girls, tender and young, subject to the advances of a mature man who loved to manipulate women.

JOSEPH SMITH HAD SEX WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL. That's age 14! That's a very young cherry and Joe was no doubt the first man to pop it behind his wife's back. He was a disgusting man and a pervert. A dirty old man.


There is no evidence of a physical relationship. Your hatred blinds you to reason so there is no point in discussing with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:18 pm 
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There is a letter from Helen's father who stated that he and her mother “seek your welfare for time as well as eternity” He also states in that letter that ,

You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come.”

Certainly Joseph had lots of other “wives” that he would have needed to spend time with. Since men and women could be sealed at any time in the Church, what was the hurry for Smith to have these women sealed to him, unless it was to consummate a “marriage” to “raise up seed”? If the “marriages” did not have to involve sex, then why would an angel appear to him with a drawn sword (as he claimed)? To prod him into non-sexual “sealings”? Why would Smith have a problem with this idea? Why choose married women when there were lots of single women to choose from? If God is just, as Smith claimed, then they would have been his in eternity anyway. This was about convenience for Smith and who could keep secrets, or he simply would have “married” anyone.

There would certainly be ways of judiciously explaining such a doctrine. If, as Brian Hales asserts, polygamy is only some sort of appendage to Monogamous “sealing”, and “non-sexual eternity only sealings fulfill the primary purpose”, then why would Smith ever have to consummate any of the “marriages”? It makes little sense, especially when Smith claimed that God promised to give him whatever he asked for.

In fact, Heber C. Kimball himself casts doubt on the concept of non-sexual sealings, as his first choice to marry after being commanded by Smith was to choose older women that would not involve sexuality. As Helen Mar Kimball later wrote,

Quote:
"When first hearing the principle taught, believing that he would be called upon to enter into it, he had thought of two elderly ladies named Pitkin, great friends of my mother's who, he believed, would cause her little, if any, unhappiness. But the woman he was commanded to take was an English lady named Sarah Noon, nearer my mother's age, who came over with the company of Saints in the same ship in which father and Brother Brigham returned from Europe. She had been married and was the mother of two little girls, but left her husband on account of his drunken and dissolute habits. Father was told to take her as his wife and provide for her and her children, and he did so.


Smith rejected this idea and told him to take a younger wife he could have sex and children with. Heber C. Kimball’s marriage to Sarah Noon was not a “non-sexual sealing”. Why then, would Smith not be satisfied with Heber C. Kimball’s first choice?

Because he wanted his "Apostles" fully committed to what he himself was doing. Having sex with all his wives.

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"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:22 pm 
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So, what are the justifications that the "marriages" to Helen and Nancy would be any different than his other "marriages" to the women he had sex with?

I eagerly wait on a coherent response.

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"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:22 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
No, you are arguing the principle. I agree with you.
But the principle is no guarantee of practice.


You honestly think holy horny Joe kept his pants up the whole time? The man was a molester and craved women. Other LDS leaders took young brides in Utah and the whole thing was just disgusting. All of them, dirty old men and they got their lessons from horny holy Joe -- an adulterer and a pervert.

I know it. I know it in my bones. I know it in my heart. I know it in my gut.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Strike one,

Smith gives "revelation" that polygamy was for "raising up seed".

Strike two,

Helen Kimball (who was in fact "married" to him) says it was for "raising up seed".

Strike Three,

The Book of Mormon says that if I command it, it shall be for "raising up seed".

JHLPROF

Yer out.

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"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
I've got things/stuff/jobs to do and when I'm done I may/may not choose/decide to respond/reply/post/comment again. Or not. But maybe? ~Jersey Girl


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:28 pm 
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grindael wrote:
If, as Brian Hales asserts, polygamy is only some sort of appendage to Monogamous “sealing”, and “non-sexual eternity only sealings fulfill the primary purpose”, then why would Smith ever have to consummate any of the “marriages”? It makes little sense, especially when Smith claimed that God promised to give him whatever he asked for.

I do not agree with Hales at all. He attempts to prove no sexual relations in Joseph's marriages. I don't agree with him any more than I would agree with Meg "pass the meat" Stout and her covenant companions.

In case I haven't been clear the past posts I am limiting my doubts to Nancy and Helen, the wives that draw the Jeff's comparisons and get Shulem all huffy.
You ask why they would be different from his 17 or 19 year old wives? That is the million dollar question.

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Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Quote:
there is no evidence that sex was involved either for Helen or Nancy, the only two outliers by age.


Because you say so? In the immortal words of JHLPROF...

"Oh please..."

And Hales does not try to prove no sex in Joseph's marriages. Far from it. You can't even get this right.

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"I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can." ~Joseph Smith
"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
I've got things/stuff/jobs to do and when I'm done I may/may not choose/decide to respond/reply/post/comment again. Or not. But maybe? ~Jersey Girl


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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:31 pm 
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grindael wrote:
It's not that Smith was like Jeffs, but that Jeffs was like Smith.


Bullseye! Joe and Jeff are sexual predators and are peas in a pod.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:32 pm 
Dragon
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 5081
Location: The Land of Lorn
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You ask why they would be different from his 17 or 19 year old wives? That is the million dollar question.


I've proved that they weren't any different. You are simply posturing and claiming they were with absolutely NO EVIDENCE because YOU want them to be.

Grow up.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's to Joseph Smith Con-Artist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:34 pm 
First Presidency
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 807
JLHPROF wrote:
I do not agree with Hales at all. He attempts to prove no sexual relations in Joseph's marriages. I don't agree with him any more than I would agree with Meg "pass the meat" Stout and her covenant companions.

In case I haven't been clear the past posts I am limiting my doubts to Nancy and Helen, the wives that draw the Jeff's comparisons and get Shulem all huffy.
You ask why they would be different from his 17 or 19 year old wives? That is the million dollar question.


See grindael's post above, it was for raising up seed and Helen, herself, said so. There was a lot of convincing that had to be done to get poor Helen to take the plunge in the form of promised exaltation for Helen's family. What more do you want? We all know it sounds horrible that Joseph Smith would have sex with a 14 year old but it looks like that was the case. I think you simply want to have the blinders on because Joseph Smith looks like a pedophile in this case.


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