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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Viriatu
Living prophets are more important and relevant to us than dead ones.


Then why quote Joseph Smith so often? Or any of the scriptures?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Viriatu wrote:
Living prophets are more important and relevant to us than dead ones. My Native American friends thank you for your racist analogy, too.


Any examples of prophecy, seering or revelation from your living prophets in the last 30 years?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Viriatu wrote:
You forget what Brother Brigham said or something?

" And now when compared with the living oracles th[e Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants] are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books."

Living prophets are more important and relevant to us than dead ones. My Native American friends thank you for your racist analogy, too.
I have to take issue with that statement:

D&C 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.


The words of the “living prophets” don’t supersede the canonized written word of God. On the contrary, we use the written word of God to determine the soundness of doctrine of everyone else, including those of the “living prophets”. Brigham Young himself was guilty of introducing several false doctrines; and how are we supposed to know? Because we have the written word of God to compare them with. That is what they are there for. You don’t throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon into the trashcan just because we now have “living prophets and Apostles”. We do the opposite. We use them to determine the soundness of doctrine of everyone else, including those of the “living prophets and Apostles”.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:54 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
So the question is, were the Keys conferred so that they're still on earth? I think the answer is yes. Just my opinion.


I think maybe you should listen to the 2-part podcast, Apostolic Coup d'état, before you reach any hard and fast opinions on that one.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... up-d-etat/

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... etat-pt-2/


I already devoted 38 minutes today to the podcast about "True Believing Mormons." It's going to be a while before I have two hours plus to devote to your theories on "the Quorum of Twelve's power grab." If you have an argument that Section 107 has not been followed in Church governance then I'm sure you can make the argument in less than two hours.


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:58 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
Living prophets are more important and relevant to us than dead ones. My Native American friends thank you for your racist analogy, too.


Any examples of prophecy, seering or revelation from your living prophets in the last 30 years?


You should hear someone who was there tellthe story of President Nelson's dedicatory prayer at the MTC in São Paulo, Brazil. The prophetic gifts are on display all the time if you look for them.


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Viriatu wrote:
You should hear someone who was there tell the story of President Nelson's dedicatory prayer at the MTC in São Paulo, Brazil. The prophetic gifts are on display all the time if you look for them.

I'll! take that as a no.

E' facil fazer predicao a respeito do Brasil. Agora eu tb farei. A igreja vai crescer no Brasil mais devegar que a igreja Adventista.

Bet ya I'm more prophetic than ole Russell.

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Last edited by SteelHead on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:33 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
You forget what Brother Brigham said or something?

" And now when compared with the living oracles th[e Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants] are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books."

Living prophets are more important and relevant to us than dead ones. My Native American friends thank you for your racist analogy, too.
I have to take issue with that statement:

D&C 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.


The words of the “living prophets” don’t supersede the canonized written word of God. On the contrary, we use the written word of God to determine the soundness of doctrine of everyone else, including those of the “living prophets”. Brigham Young himself was guilty of introducing several false doctrines; and how are we supposed to know? Because we have the written word of God to compare them with. That is what they are there for. You don’t throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon into the trashcan just because we now have “living prophets and Apostles”. We do the opposite. We use them to determine the soundness of doctrine of everyone else, including those of the “living prophets and Apostles”.


Zerinus, where is the canon that allows for a man to take a plural wife concurrently married to another man?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:53 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
E' facil fazer predicao a respeito do Brasil. Agora eu tb farei. A igreja vai crescer no Brasil mais devegar que a igreja Adventista.
Falando besteira portuguesa agora eu vejo. Besteira ainda é besteira, independentemente da língua em que é falado.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:08 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
SteelHead wrote:
E' facil fazer predicao a respeito do Brasil. Agora eu tb farei. A igreja vai crescer no Brasil mais devegar que a igreja Adventista.
Falando besteira portuguesa agora eu vejo. Besteira ainda é besteira, independentemente da língua em que é falado.

e você parece ser bastante experiente espalhando besteira

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:09 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
Zerinus, where is the canon that allows for a man to take a plural wife concurrently married to another man?
If that is what God had commanded him to do, then that is what he must do. God also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, even though it is written in the Bible, “Thou shalt not kill”. We do what God says at all times, even if it is not written in the Bible, or in any other canon of scripture.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:26 am 
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zerinus wrote:
SteelHead wrote:
Zerinus, where is the canon that allows for a man to take a plural wife concurrently married to another man?
If that is what God had commanded him to do, then that is what he must do. God also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, even though it is written in the Bible, “Thou shalt not kill”. We do what God says at all times, even if it is not written in the Bible, or in any other canon of scripture.


God commands humanity not to kill.
God then commands Abraham to kill his son.

God commands men to uphold the sanctity of marriage.
God then commands men to break the sanctity of marriage.

WTF is wrong with your God? Was he bullied at school?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:50 am 
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zerinus wrote:
SteelHead wrote:
Zerinus, where is the canon that allows for a man to take a plural wife concurrently married to another man?
If that is what God had commanded him to do, then that is what he must do. God also commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, even though it is written in the Bible, “Thou shalt not kill”. We do what God says at all times, even if it is not written in the Bible, or in any other canon of scripture.


That wasn't the question.

The canon states clearly D&C 132
Quote:
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.


And they are virgins

So where is the canon that allows a man to take a plural wife that is not a virgin and is concurrently married to another man? You have stated the canon is the ultimate repository of doctrine.

So what does it mean when your prophet engages in behavior contradicted by the canon?

Oh and you still have failed to show where obedience to the WOW became doctrine as the canon says it is counsel.

Schizophrenic Mormon god? Or god the ultimate excuse for moral debauchery? An angel with a drawn sword commanded me to take this 18 year old as a plural wife.

How comvenient. To bad god can't get directly involved in solving real problems, but he can be directly involved in who Joseph Smith beds.

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Last edited by SteelHead on Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:52 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
e você parece ser bastante experiente espalhando besteira


this^^^

Quote:
In his prayer Elder Nelson blessed “the citizens of Brazil with freedom and accountability to grow in righteousness” and “the leaders of this great nation with wisdom and integrity.


lava jato anyone? Nelson's blessing didn't take......

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:52 am 
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Consig,

Perhaps you missed this, perhaps you just did not want to answer?

viewtopic.php?p=1076825#p1076825

My post one up from where this links to.


Last edited by RockSlider on Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:57 am 
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Why would the Church spend large amounts of tithing expanding the MTC system when the number of serving missionaries who would use them is dwindling?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:23 am 
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I have a question wrote:
Why would the Church spend large amounts of tithing expanding the MTC system when the number of serving missionaries who would use them is dwindling?


silly...you are talking about prophets of the living God....they know that the missionary force is in decline...but with their prophetic foresight they see a time, in the not too distant future, when these missionary training centers will be converted in to high price condo units and the millions of dollars in monthly rents pouring into the churches coffers... oh yea of little faith

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:43 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
I remember at BYU all books critical of the church in the library were locked up. That doesn't mean anything. BYU isn't the first presidency. I could have lied and possibly got permission to access them. I could have gone off campus and found with no official discipline. The fact they were locked up implies nothing about appropriateness of studying them.


This is an important point that should not go unaddressed in this discussion.

Thanks, Gad!

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:45 am 
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Viriatu wrote:
I already devoted 38 minutes today to the podcast about "True Believing Mormons." It's going to be a while before I have two hours plus to devote to your theories on "the Quorum of Twelve's power grab." If you have an argument that Section 107 has not been followed in Church governance then I'm sure you can make the argument in less than two hours.


I would be remiss if I didn't say I appreciate the fact you are willing to look at things that may challenge your religious point of view.

Even if it is against the counsel of our leaders . . . :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 am 
God

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RockSlider wrote:

So Consig and Bill Reel, I see no
future for the likes of you and I in a corporation trying hard to balance the financial might of us Baby Boomers and our old school desires, and the Millennials who have no appetite for it.


* * *

Why do you persist?


A good question, RockSlider.

Would it be terrible if I quoted the Book of Mormon on this subject?

Quote:
Moroni 9:6 And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God.


Or as Cyrano de Bergerac put it, "A man fights for more than the mere hope of winning."

Or as the missionary says in the campfire scene in the movie The Ghost and the Darkness, "The glory is in the struggle!"

Or as Joseph Smith wrote from Liberty Jail:

Quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 123:13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Consig

labor to what end?

What are you fighting for?

Is the glory only in the struggle, or seeing some progress from that struggle?

As far as bringing to light the things of darkness, is that to the end of keeping people in that darkness? Given only my two points (ignoring many others) i.e. continuing loss of doctrine, and corporation hidden finances, do you foresee any amount of labor, fighting and struggle, by any number of individuals being able to change this?


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:30 am 
God

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RockSlider wrote:
Consig

labor to what end?

What are you fighting for?

Is the glory only in the struggle, or seeing some progress from that struggle?

As far as bringing to light the things of darkness, is that to the end of keeping people in that darkness? Given only my two points (ignoring many others) i.e. continuing loss of doctrine, and corporation hidden finances, do you foresee any amount of labor, fighting and struggle, by any number of individuals being able to change this?


No, I honestly don't see a lot of hope of changing things. Or maybe the changes are so incremental it is hard for me to discern them, like watching the hour hand of a clock.

The church has spent so much time covering things up, I think it only right for me to do my part in uncovering them, insofar as I am able.

What others do with that information is up to them.

I am satisfied with just doing the uncovering. :cool:

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