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 Post subject: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:56 am 
God

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Radio Free Mormon has a new podcast up dealing with the definition of True Believing Mormon and how that term may be defined differently by church leaders today than Joseph Smith would have defined it.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... ng-mormon/

I hope you like it!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:05 am 
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I enjoyed it. Thanks. It's less explosive than past episodes but makes an important and interesting point.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:05 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Radio Free Mormon has a new podcast up dealing with the definition of True Believing Mormon and how that term may be defined differently by church leaders today than Joseph Smith would have defined it.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... ng-mormon/

I hope you like it!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
What a boring waste of time. All you have done is to build a bunch of straw-men, and knock them down. None of the accusations you have made against the Church are true. You have invented a whole bunch of fake accusations, and then knocked down your own fake accusations. Nobody is going to be fooled by that—except those who want to be fooled.

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Last edited by zerinus on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Thanks for your work, consiglieri. You are one of the more thoughtful and interesting voices in the world of podcasts. I can always expect to encounter fascinating new ideas and interpretations when I listen to your work.

Thank you!!!

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:51 pm 
God
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I also look forward to your podcasts and enjoyed this one as well.

The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. What is promised? For Aaronic level adherence, the administration of angels. For Melchezedik level adherence, to know the mysteries of Godliness.

No wonder Denver Snuffer appeals to 'True Believing Mormons"!


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 pm 
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fetchface wrote:
I enjoyed it. Thanks. It's less explosive than past episodes but makes an important and interesting point.


I'm glad you liked it!

Thanks for your kind words!

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
Radio Free Mormon has a new podcast up dealing with the definition of True Believing Mormon and how that term may be defined differently by church leaders today than Joseph Smith would have defined it.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... ng-mormon/

I hope you like it!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
What a boring waste of time. All you have done is to build a bunch of straw-men, and knock them down. None of the accusations you have made against the Church are true. You have invented a whole bunch of fake accusations, and then knocked down your own fake accusations. Nobody is going to be fooled by that—except those who want to be fooled.


Praise from Caesar!

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Thanks for your work, consiglieri. You are one of the more thoughtful and interesting voices in the world of podcasts. I can always expect to encounter fascinating new ideas and interpretations when I listen to your work.

Thank you!!!


Totally means a lot coming from you, Reverend!

The part I liked was when I stumbled on the redefinition of "mysteries" by Joseph Fielding Smith, and how suddenly the "mysteries" we are supposed to learn about are the things everybody already knows.

But the things that are not revealed have now become something other than the "mysteries" into which Joseph Smith directed we "seek deeper and deeper."

Technically, both groups of knowledge are now called "mysteries." Somewhere along the way, two types of "mysteries" were created in Mormon Doctrine--those with which we are supposed to concern ourselves and those we are supposed to leave alone.

The mysteries we are now supposed to leave alone are the mysteries Joseph Smith told us to never stop delving into.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:38 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
I also look forward to your podcasts and enjoyed this one as well.

The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. What is promised? For Aaronic level adherence, the administration of angels. For Melchezedik level adherence, to know the mysteries of Godliness.

No wonder Denver Snuffer appeals to 'True Believing Mormons"!


Spot on!

I think Denver Snuffer appeals to TBMs who are sufficiently aware to see a charism chasm between early and modern Mormonism, but who still want to have an external locus of authority.

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:10 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
The part I liked was when I stumbled on the redefinition of "mysteries" by Joseph Fielding Smith, and how suddenly the "mysteries" we are supposed to learn about are the things everybody already knows.

But the things that are not revealed have now become something other than the "mysteries" into which Joseph Smith directed we "seek deeper and deeper."

Technically, both groups of knowledge are now called "mysteries." Somewhere along the way, two types of "mysteries" were created in Mormon Doctrine--those with which we are supposed to concern ourselves and those we are supposed to leave alone.

The mysteries we are now supposed to leave alone are the mysteries Joseph Smith told us to never stop delving into.
There is more than one way of describing a mystery. St. Paul for example uses it to refer to something that is already revealed or made known:

Romans 16:

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 6:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Colossians 4:

2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
4 That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

1 Timothy 3:

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


In these passages what Paul calls a “mystery” simply refers to the gospel message that he is preaching, and the message of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. It refers to something that is already revealed, not something that is supposedly hidden.

You are also deceptively selective in your quotations from LDS sources to promote your own false agendas. For example, in your reference to the Book of Mormon Student Manual, you give quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie found in lesson 25 of the manual which appears to support your false assumptions, but ignore a quote from Elder Oaks in the same lesson in the same manual which contradicts your false assumptions. Here is the quote:


“Elder Dallin H. Oaks explained that if we reject revelation through the Holy Ghost, we limit how much we can learn: “We teach and learn the mysteries of God by revelation from his Holy Spirit. If we harden our hearts to revelation and limit our understanding to what we can obtain by study and reason, we are limited to what Alma called ‘the lesser portion of the word’” (The Lord’s Way [1991], 42).”

That is just plain dishonest, and amounts to nothing less than telling lies.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:15 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
That is just plain dishonest, and amounts to nothing less than telling lies.


Paul believed the atoning mission of Jesus Christ was "hidden" in the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures and that generations of observant Jews had not been able to figure it out.

This would qualify as a "mystery."

It is a very different thing to say that the atoning mission of Jesus Christ was "hidden" in the pages of the Greek Scriptures.

That would not qualify as a "mystery."

Can you see the distinction?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:35 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Paul believed the atoning mission of Jesus Christ was "hidden" in the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures and that generations of observant Jews had not been able to figure it out.

This would qualify as a "mystery."

It is a very different thing to say that the atoning mission of Jesus Christ was "hidden" in the pages of the Greek Scriptures.

That would not qualify as a "mystery."

Can you see the distinction?
No. He was still calling a "mystery" something that was already revealed, and he was preaching all over the place. His idea of a "mystery" was the same as what Joseph Fielding Smith was talking about, no difference.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:50 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Radio Free Mormon has a new podcast up dealing with the definition of True Believing Mormon and how that term may be defined differently by church leaders today than Joseph Smith would have defined it.



Joseph probably would define it as loyalty to him. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:56 pm 
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If Mormonism were defined by the finest sentiments and principles taught by Joseph Smith and other Mormons, then I would still be LDS today. Unfortunately, as you demonstrate, so much of what made Mormonism interesting and worthwhile has been turned on its head by the LDS Church's contemporary leaders. It is one thing to be asked to tolerate the weaknesses of men; it is another to feel compelled to follow men at their worst. Boyd K. Packer on the truth? Ay caramba!

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:07 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
If Mormonism were defined by the finest sentiments and principles taught by Joseph Smith and other Mormons, then I would still be a Mormon today.


We can say that about any religious group. If we take all of what Joseph provided It was not something good.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:08 am 
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Themis wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
If Mormonism were defined by the finest sentiments and principles taught by Joseph Smith and other Mormons, then I would still be LDS* today.


We can say that about any religious group. If we take all of what Joseph provided It was not something good.
*edited for accuracy

No, Themis, I cannot say that about any religious group. Pardon me as I excuse myself from your we. And I think that part of consiglieri's point is that he would not necessarily include himself in this particular we either. Not all belief systems are interchangeable. Ideas differ and those differences have consequences. If you listen to or read the quotes of Joseph Smith that consiglieri was talking about, they are some of the noblest and most inclusive sentiments one could imagine. Those ideas are what inspired consiglieri, and they had a very similar impact on me. I still cherish those ideas.

That is different from saying that one cannot learn from the greatest ideas of other religions. Indeed, part of the irony of your post is that this is the very thing that Joseph Smith advocated--taking the best ideas from every tradition and importing them into Mormonism! Hasn't scholarship demonstrated that this is part of what Joseph Smith was doing when he composed his scriptures? If Thomas Dick had some good ideas, Joseph Smith thought nothing of inserting his reading of them into his Book of Abraham. That idea was an important part of consiglieri's podcast. You did listen to it, I am supposing?

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:26 pm 
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I am aware that on numerous occasions, Joseph Smith did not act in conformity with his lofty ideals as expressed in the quotes I used on the podcast.

But then, many of us have lofty ideals that we frequently fail to live up to.

The fact we don't live up to our ideals doesn't mean we shouldn't have ideals in the first place.

Similarly, the fact Joseph Smith had lofty ideals does not mean we should not be able to adopt those ideals as our own if we feel it appropriate.

And this even though Joseph Smith may not have lived up to those ideals himself.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Joseph probably would define it as loyalty to him. :wink:
His entire podcast is a set of fabricated lies and straw men which he has invented himself to knock down, and which have no existence in the world of reality. The expression “true believing Mormon” is his own invention, or the invention of the anti-Mormon websites that he likes visiting I guess. I don’t recall having come across such an expression in any respectable LDS literature, or in any Conference talk, or even in any LDS sacrament talk. I don’t recall having come across it in any conversation with a Mormon. I just searched the LDS Church’s official website for the expression, and couldn’t find one. It is nothing more than a straw man which he has created himself in order to knock it down. That phrase or expression is non-existent and unheard of LDS Church or LDS literature.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:59 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Themis wrote:
Joseph probably would define it as loyalty to him. :wink:
His entire podcast is a set of fabricated lies and straw men which he has invented himself to knock down, and which have no existence in the world of reality. The expression “true believing Mormon” is his own invention, or the invention of the anti-Mormon websites that he likes visiting I guess. I don’t recall having come across such an expression in any respectable LDS literature, or in any Conference talk, or even in any LDS sacrament talk. I don’t recall having come across it in any conversation with a Mormon. I just searched the LDS Church’s official website for the expression, and couldn’t find one. It is nothing more than a straw man which he has created himself in order to knock it down. That phrase or expression is non-existent and unheard of LDS Church or LDS literature.
Daniel C. Peterson, in a 2016 Interpreter article, wrote:
Indeed this is the case: One can be a fully active Mormon who
is seen as thoroughly devout, "true believing Mormon" by truthfully
passing a "temple recommend interview" in which one must affirm that
one is living the commandments and hold some basic Christian beliefs
in the salvific sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the prophethood of Joseph

Smith as the "restorer" of Christianity.https://books.google.com/books?id=_4zcC ... 22&f=false

Terry Givens, in the Oxford Handbook of Mormonism, wrote:
An "orthodox" or "true-believing" Mormon or "true-blue Mormon" (TBM) aligns with church teachings and counsel as closely as possible. https://books.google.com/books?id=Es4fC ... rg&f=false

:rolleyes: Up your search game, zerinus.


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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:03 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I am aware that on numerous occasions, Joseph Smith did not act in conformity with his lofty ideals as expressed in the quotes I used on the podcast.

But then, many of us have lofty ideals that we frequently fail to live up to.

The fact we don't live up to our ideals doesn't mean we shouldn't have ideals in the first place.

Similarly, the fact Joseph Smith had lofty ideals does not mean we should not be able to adopt those ideals as our own if we feel it appropriate.

And this even though Joseph Smith may not have lived up to those ideals himself.


I agree with this 100%.

An important part of the process of becoming an ex-Mormon is the rejection of things Mormon. When you experience those cracks in the system, soon you see flaws everywhere. This is as it should be. The person who has no faith crisis is either a fool or a sublime genius. Once you have the faith crisis, you try to put the pieces back together in some way. You can reject the LDS Church, reject Mormonism, reject Joseph Smith, remove your name from the records, spend endless hours on discussion boards, just leave and forget about it... or maybe you make it work, salvage your relationship with the LDS Church, salvage your Mormonism, keep some of the good you had, spend endless hours on discussion boards, leave behind the questions forever, or what have you.

There is no right way of doing it. There are myriad ways of doing it. I choose one thing; you choose another.

I like what consiglieri is doing. He is holding onto those things about Mormonism that are valuable and praiseworthy to him. He is teaching us a helluva lot in the process. I don't expect that zerinus will have the first foggy clue what he is up to, or praise his efforts, but that is no matter. I think we can all plainly see where zerinus is on his journey.

My observation here is that we have no obligation to do what others expect us to do. Sure, we don't get to dictate others' reactions to our choices. Nevertheless, I would like to see more people assert themselves against the reject the whole thing or do the whole thing approaches. There are so many obviously poor assumptions built into the common narratives of apostasy and obedience that it is hard to know where to begin.

One of the bad assumptions is that in order to be Mormon you have to be a member of the LDS Church. Another is that if you are in a Restoration church that is not LDS, you should shrink from the appellation "Mormon." Another is that participation in Mormonism requires absolute obedience to priesthood leaders. Another is the assumption that being Mormon means seeing everything exactly as Joseph Smith saw them, and accepting every last idea or practice of his as right, true, divine, and a model for all.

I really like John Dehlin's cafeteria approach. It is simply right. Everyone is picking and choosing at the buffet of religion. Some choose to conform to one community, others choose to reject, yet others find their own accommodation. No one is doing the same thing, and it is really not my place or anyone else's to say that there is an absolutely right way of doing things. Sure, you may be told that there is, or you may tell me that there is, but there really isn't.

So, you go, consiglieri! Thanks so much for providing me with listening and learning material that really resonates with me. I am a big fan.

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 Post subject: Re: True Believing Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Count me as a fan of consiglieri 's. His podcast is one of the very few which I will immediately jump to the front of the queue when a new episode is available. I appreciate his approach because it resonates with me.


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