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 Post subject: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't Happen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:08 pm 
God
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If the CES Letter is just regurgitated nonsense, and refurbishing of old anti-Mormon arguments as apologists continually drone into their own ears, this would be impossible. And mind you its happening to tens of thousands. Runnells is mocked by faithful LDS but HE was asked what his problems were, and he responded to THAT question. Obviously the church has failed to teach what is bothering many tens of thousands, yet its somehow their fault? I just don't think so....

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... literally/

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Apologists say "the CES Letter is just regurgitated nonsense, and refurbishing of old anti-Mormon arguments" because they get very creative in defending the LDS Church. It is easy for them to get creative because everything in the LDS church is poorly defined. Like Sean Carroll said in a debate, "Now, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, “But I can explain all of that.” I know you can explain all of that—so can I. It’s not hard to come up with ex post facto justifications for why God would have done it that way. Why is it not hard? Because theism is not well defined. That’s what computer scientists call a bug, not a feature"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqKObSeim2w

With history you rarely find historical proof, and the apologists take advantage of that.

You say, "Obviously the church has failed to teach what is bothering many tens of thousands"

Apologists tell you that the primary mission of the church is not to teach detailed history, or college level courses on history. They will tell you the mission of the church is to bring people to Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:08 am 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Apologists tell you that the primary mission of the church is not to teach detailed history, or college level courses on history. They will tell you the mission of the church is to bring people to Christ.

In making this watered-down claim, the Apologistia are, of course, trying to avoid the larger issue of the authority claim, membership fee for salvation and peculiar conditions for eternal family togetherness that effectively combine into a type of emotional abuse, especially when leveraged with the encouraged 'out group' response to anyone who dares question the doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:19 am 
God
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Apologists say "the CES Letter is just regurgitated nonsense, and refurbishing of old anti-Mormon arguments" because they get very creative in defending the LDS Church. It is easy for them to get creative because everything in the LDS church is poorly defined. Like Sean Carroll said in a debate, "Now, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, “But I can explain all of that.” I know you can explain all of that—so can I. It’s not hard to come up with ex post facto justifications for why God would have done it that way. Why is it not hard? Because theism is not well defined. That’s what computer scientists call a bug, not a feature"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqKObSeim2w

With history you rarely find historical proof, and the apologists take advantage of that.

You say, "Obviously the church has failed to teach what is bothering many tens of thousands"

Apologists tell you that the primary mission of the church is not to teach detailed history, or college level courses on history. They will tell you the mission of the church is to bring people to Christ.


Very interesting thoughts. Yes if the church's mission is to bring souls to Christ it is even failing that. And why? Because Christ is about the truth, and when we find out the church has been truly FALSE with its own history, then it can't possibly represent the person who represents the truth. It's a vicious catch 22 almost for the organization.

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:55 pm 
Sunbeam

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The CES Letter is proof that if you ask enough questions based on false equivalencies, incorrect assumptions, and logical reaches that you're bound to shake the faith of somebody.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:57 am 
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Viriatu wrote:
The CES Letter is proof that if you ask enough questions based on false equivalencies, incorrect assumptions, and logical reaches that you're bound to shake the faith of somebody.

Such as?

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:00 am 
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Viriatu wrote:
The CES Letter is proof that if you ask enough questions based on false equivalencies, incorrect assumptions, and logical reaches that you're bound to shake the faith of somebody.

...you’ll get excommunicated.

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 am 
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Telling people you have the Truth while trying to convince them and illustrating it by telling lies is the sign of so many religions.

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:52 am 
Sunbeam

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moksha wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
The CES Letter is proof that if you ask enough questions based on false equivalencies, incorrect assumptions, and logical reaches that you're bound to shake the faith of somebody.

Such as?


Take "The View of the Hebrews," for example. I heard about the claims that the Book of Mormon was based on view of the Hebrews a few years ago and took the time to read it in about 2011. Runnell's table with the checked boxes of common elements in the CES letter gives the impression that the two works are alike in every significant way. But if you actually read both texts, the argument doesn't hold up. I doubt that Runnells took the time to read View of the Hebrews. Just one example.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:53 am 
Sunbeam

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I have a question wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
The CES Letter is proof that if you ask enough questions based on false equivalencies, incorrect assumptions, and logical reaches that you're bound to shake the faith of somebody.

...you’ll get excommunicated.


Runnells didn't get excommunicated. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:56 am 
2nd Quorum of Seventy

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SuperDell wrote:
Telling people you have the Truth while trying to convince them and illustrating it by telling lies is the sign of so many religions.
So true!! I love this statement!


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:17 am 
Nursery

Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:26 am
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Viriatu wrote:
Take "The View of the Hebrews," for example. I heard about the claims that the Book of Mormon was based on view of the Hebrews a few years ago and took the time to read it in about 2011. Runnell's table with the checked boxes of common elements in the CES letter gives the impression that the two works are alike in every significant way. But if you actually read both texts, the argument doesn't hold up. I doubt that Runnells took the time to read View of the Hebrews. Just one example.


Runnels has not been the only one to draw startling parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon. Some portion of such a view may be subjective, but it is valid enough to convince B.H. Roberts and many others who put stock in the parallels after reading it.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:51 am 
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Viriatu wrote:
Runnells didn't get excommunicated. :lol:


Lest anyone get confused by the attempt to distract:

http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstor ... nnells.htm

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:15 am 
Sunbeam

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
Runnells didn't get excommunicated. :lol:


Lest anyone get confused by the attempt to distract:

http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstor ... nnells.htm

- Doc


True or false: Jeremy Runnells was excommunicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:24 pm 
God
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Viriatu wrote:
True or false: Jeremy Runnells was excommunicated.


Oh, he definitely wasn't excommunicated, but your position implies he wasn't going to be. What do you think was going to happen at his Court of LoveTM?

- doctor of love

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:35 pm 
Sunbeam

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
True or false: Jeremy Runnells was excommunicated.


Oh, he definitely wasn't excommunicated, but your position implies he wasn't going to be. What do you think was going to happen at his Court of LoveTM?

- doctor of love


You could tell from the moment that he refused to sign the paper when he first walked in how it was going to go. But he would have been excommunicated not for asking questions but for sticking to his guns. Read Mosiah 26. Of course he was going to get ex'ed. But it wasn't for asking. It was for insisting and not repenting.


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Insisting on what?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Insisting on what?

- Doc


My guess is insisting on controlling the narrative by asking those pesky questions in a public fashion. Don't ever ask the "special" witnesses anything because the answers will always be too "sacred." :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:04 pm 
God
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Exiled wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Insisting on what?

- Doc


My guess is insisting on controlling the narrative by asking those pesky questions in a public fashion. Don't ever ask the "special" witnesses anything because the answers will always be too "sacred." :lol: :lol: :lol:


You know. If Viriatu had said what you just said I'd have some hope for the LDS church... :)

- doc

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Runnels wouldn't have been ex'ed for what he said, he would have been ex'ed for failing to stop saying it.

That way the leadership of the "Court of Love" do not have to deal with the actual issues, and since they are the ones who issued the instructions to shut up, they can also enforce the penalty for failure to do so. Judge, jury and executioners. It is a slick system that guarantees one doesn't have to know a damn thing about church history to excommunicate someone for talking about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Had Mormonism Been Teaching True History This couldn't H
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:56 pm 
Sunbeam

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Runnels wouldn't have been ex'ed for what he said, he would have been ex'ed for failing to stop saying it.

That way the leadership of the "Court of Love" do not have to deal with the actual issues, and since they are the ones who issued the instructions to shut up, they can also enforce the penalty for failure to do so. Judge, jury and executioners. It is a slick system that guarantees one doesn't have to know a damn thing about church history to excommunicate someone for talking about it.


Wait. Isn't the CES Letter evidence in itself that Runnells doesn't know a damn thing about Church history? If he knew, he wouldn't have to ask! :lol: :lol: :lol:

But come on, Runnells was taping his conversations with the Stake President and posting them online. Runnells was adversarial from the beginning and never appeared to even want answers to his questions.


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