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 Post subject: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:34 pm 
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It's just too ironic to pass up is all.....

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With regard to matters of ancient history, and particularly with regard to the New Testament, the scholarly consensus shifts, the arguments are never decisive, and all is uncertainty. With the Book of Mormon, however, the Lord removes the ambiguity, and makes the options clear. No dependence upon the sifting of ancient textual variants. No doubtful reconstruction of long-vanished and very foreign cultures.
Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... bpJQgbm.99


I.........uh............. now lessee here, which ancient American cultures have been identified with the "vanished" Nephites or Lamanites? The only thing abundantly clear is that there is still literally no Nephites or Lamanites identifiable yet in any manner or mere iota. This is what is unambiguous.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Yep. I was reading a thread over at mad and someone referenced how DNA does not support the Book of Mormon, but it is ok as there is abundant other evidences. To which I thought - "Hamblin produced 0. Which other evidence are they referring to?" but I refrained from posting.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:38 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
Yep. I was reading a thread over at mad and someone referenced how DNA does not support the Book of Mormon, but it is ok as there is abundant other evidences. To which I thought - "Hamblin produced 0. Which other evidence are they referring to?" but I refrained from posting.


Oh....... you know....... cool things, like......like.......the Holy Ghost burnin yer butt......er chest. COOL things like genuine ancient Hebrew chiasmus! COOL things like tapirs n such!

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Quote:
With regard to matters of ancient history, and particularly with regard to the New Testament, the scholarly consensus shifts, the arguments are never decisive, and all is uncertainty. With the Book of Mormon, however, the Lord removes the ambiguity, and makes the options clear. No dependence upon the sifting of ancient textual variants. No doubtful reconstruction of long-vanished and very foreign cultures.

:rolleyes:

I view this as arrogantly promoting a deliberate deception, which is known by the promoter to be such.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Of course it is, on both counts. He says, or at least implies, consensus shifts in scholarship so we can't trust what it says about Jesus or the New Testament, yet he does so. He imagines that consensus is the all important ingredient toward truth. It isn't. Yet come around Christmas time, watch. He will simply limp along with the consensus about blathering on and droning out all the evidences of the resurrection (there isn't any, but my what a production the consensus makes of it!). It seems he doesn't take one of his favorite LDS scholars at all seriously when Nibley said "Socrates showed long ago what a hollow thing consensus is," yet here we have the claim that the consensus about the Book of Mormon is true. Too weird. I have noticed something interesting however these last several years. The apologists have gone the way of generalities. It's almost as if they have recognized they can't cut it as apologists, so they are going for the gold of General Authority status. Mouth opening yawning platitudes is all they offer these days, and apologists appear to me to be following the same path.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Why bother will all the freaking real history? Those dang textual variants, the provenance of manuscripts, the fragments, the science of authentication, the archaeological digs, the hard won discoveries that reveal the ancient world, all the stuff that REAL HISTORY is made of?

Simply bypass that for a text that came from a farmboy who buried his face in a hat and claimed to get it by seeing glowing letters on his peepstone -- which can't be verified by any evidence AT ALL! I mean, there's simply no comparison!

Yeah, it makes perfect sense that the latter is so much better than the former.

Aren't Mormon Apologists just the bees knees? Damn you Philo, for trying to rain on their parade. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:57 am 
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GameOver wrote:
I view this as arrogantly promoting a deliberate deception, which is known by the promoter to be such.

It is hard to fault Dr. Peterson for this since when you are tasked with being an apologist for something that lacks any evidence, pretending that there is evidence seems a reasonable thing to do. Would you prefer that his message consisted entirely of "shut up and believe" when helping to reassure LDS members? Dr. Peterson has been able to carve out some degree of fame and fortune for himself by his willingness to go the extra mile within apologetics. Someone has to climb up on the roof and string all those Christmas lights if you want a compelling light show. The same goes for the smoke and mirrors to accentuate the light show.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 am 
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Seems there are 1000's of changes to the modern day Book of Mormon and the original manuscript.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:08 am 
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If the Book of Mormon is so damn unambiguous, why have Mormon Apologists been arguing for years where the events took place... Heartland vs. Central America models?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:11 am 
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grindael wrote:
If the Book of Mormon is so damn unambiguous, why have Mormon Apologists been arguing for years where the events took place... Heartland vs. Central America models?


Not to mention what actual kinds of animals there are, or the places, etc. What about the disagreements concerning whether it was originally in Hebrew or in Egyptian? Crimany for a while Crowley was saying the Jaredites crossed the Atlantic, not the Pacific! There are literally dozens of things that are quite ambiguous about it. Tvedtnes disagreed with Nibley over the actual career and skills of Lehi, a traveler or a homegrown metalsmith? Two Cumorahs? Or one? etc.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:36 am 
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

See, proves the Nephites lived - if you have a testimony and have prayed about it in the approved manner.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:29 pm 
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SuperDell wrote:
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

See, proves the Nephites lived - if you have a testimony and have prayed about it in the approved manner.


Well, that depends on the circumstances. If the evidence ought to be there, but isn't, then it is evidence of absence.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
I hope he is enjoying all the attention. I would, if I were him! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:13 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
I hope he is enjoying all the attention. I would, if I were him! :mrgreen:


It's so sad he gets it through such gaffes and erroneous suppositions instead of having something really good and valuable to contribute to humankind. Unfortunately he does achieve a ton of attention because of his station. Likewise, erroneously, it's not good attention that elevates him into a leadership position of being someone who has his intellectual act together and shares real knowledge and evidence. His attention he gets is pointing to multitudinous reasons to never take him seriously because he is more error prone that Tyrion is in the Game of Thrones. If he does relish this, it demonstrates he fundamentally should be so blasted embarrassed it would shut him up all together when it comes to Mormonism and the scriptures, but he plods on innocently presenting idiotic arguments blissfully unaware that the information age demonstrates he is not one to be believed. THAT is embarrassing for him. He apparently is oblivious to the stupidity of the logic he consistently presents that when thought through shows his shortfallings and mistakes, which he never corrects. And the really crazy thing is he is not a stupid man, but is far more intelligent than most. He is living proof that religion can make utterly intelligent men into idiots of logic when it comes to taking things on faith.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
It's so sad he gets it through such gaffes and erroneous suppositions instead of having something really good and valuable to contribute to humankind. Unfortunately he does achieve a ton of attention because of his station. Likewise, erroneously, it's not good attention that elevates him into a leadership position of being someone who has his intellectual act together and shares real knowledge and evidence. His attention he gets is pointing to multitudinous reasons to never take him seriously because he is more error prone that Tyrion is in the Game of Thrones. If he does relish this, it demonstrates he fundamentally should be so blasted embarrassed it would shut him up all together when it comes to Mormonism and the scriptures, but he plods on innocently presenting idiotic arguments blissfully unaware that the information age demonstrates he is not one to be believed. THAT is embarrassing for him. He apparently is oblivious to the stupidity of the logic he consistently presents that when thought through shows his shortfallings and mistakes, which he never corrects. And the really crazy thing is he is not a stupid man, but is far more intelligent than most. He is living proof that religion can make utterly intelligent men into idiots of logic when it comes to taking things on faith.
Another way for him to look at it would be to conclude that when his arch rival and “apostate” adversary is so obsessed with him that he can’t leave him alone, he must be doing something right somewhere! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:14 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
He apparently is oblivious to the stupidity of the logic he consistently presents that when thought through shows his shortfallings and mistakes, which he never corrects. And the really crazy thing is he is not a stupid man, but is far more intelligent than most. He is living proof that religion can make utterly intelligent men into idiots of logic when it comes to taking things on faith.

In FAIRness, it should be remembered that his target audience isn't brain surgeons. By necessity, he has to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which by definition are fellow-believers who don't think things through to their logical conclusions but instead take everything at face value without applying critical thought.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:12 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
It's so sad he gets it through such gaffes and erroneous suppositions instead of having something really good and valuable to contribute to humankind. Unfortunately he does achieve a ton of attention because of his station. Likewise, erroneously, it's not good attention that elevates him into a leadership position of being someone who has his intellectual act together and shares real knowledge and evidence. His attention he gets is pointing to multitudinous reasons to never take him seriously because he is more error prone that Tyrion is in the Game of Thrones. If he does relish this, it demonstrates he fundamentally should be so blasted embarrassed it would shut him up all together when it comes to Mormonism and the scriptures, but he plods on innocently presenting idiotic arguments blissfully unaware that the information age demonstrates he is not one to be believed. THAT is embarrassing for him. He apparently is oblivious to the stupidity of the logic he consistently presents that when thought through shows his shortfallings and mistakes, which he never corrects. And the really crazy thing is he is not a stupid man, but is far more intelligent than most. He is living proof that religion can make utterly intelligent men into idiots of logic when it comes to taking things on faith.
Another way for him to look at it would be to conclude that when his arch rival and “apostate” adversary is so obsessed with him that he can’t leave him alone, he must be doing something right somewhere! :lol:


Thank you for presenting a perfect example of such idiot logic as I was speaking about.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:14 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
He apparently is oblivious to the stupidity of the logic he consistently presents that when thought through shows his shortfallings and mistakes, which he never corrects. And the really crazy thing is he is not a stupid man, but is far more intelligent than most. He is living proof that religion can make utterly intelligent men into idiots of logic when it comes to taking things on faith.

In FAIRness, it should be remembered that his target audience isn't brain surgeons. By necessity, he has to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which by definition are fellow-believers who don't think things through to their logical conclusions but instead take everything at face value without applying critical thought.


Which is all the more reason to be vastly more careful with the logical consequences and actual evidence, not even more sloppy, but I do get yer gist.... again, the religion almost virtually forces them into this corner, so that when the world sees their essays and information it can only shake its head and say amazing people fall for that kind of thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Which is all the more reason to be vastly more careful with the logical consequences and actual evidence, not even more sloppy, but I do get yer gist....

Really? More reason? If he were to start using the sort of sound logic that, say, people on this message board would appreciate, then his core audience wouldn't be able to keep up and he'd immediately lose them all.

Quote:
. . . again, the religion almost virtually forces them into this corner, so that when the world sees their essays and information it can only shake its head and say amazing people fall for that kind of thinking.

True, but his core audience isn't "the world." Which is exactly why he has to dumb everything down so much for them.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Which is all the more reason to be vastly more careful with the logical consequences and actual evidence, not even more sloppy, but I do get yer gist....

Really? More reason? If he were to start using the sort of sound logic that, say, people on this message board would appreciate, then his core audience wouldn't be able to keep up and he'd immediately lose them all.

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. . . again, the religion almost virtually forces them into this corner, so that when the world sees their essays and information it can only shake its head and say amazing people fall for that kind of thinking.

True, but his core audience isn't "the world." Which is exactly why he has to dumb everything down so much for them.


You and the impenetrable backyard professor really have it wired don't you? Those Mormons, such idiots to believe in miracles and things of the spirit. Such morons, simpletons and rubes, you say. We're all so smug here, aren't we? So much more intelligent and gifted than those stupid Mormons, who for some reason seem to appear to be happier folks that the rest of us here.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm Sorry, but it's Dan Peterson again....
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:24 pm 
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