It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:44 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:24 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:38 am
Posts: 1025
mentalgymnast wrote:
Right on, brother. They haven't. Sacrifice. Consecration. Honesty. Etc.

Regards,
MG

Really!?!? When did I covenant to be honest in the temple? Was I sleeping through that part every time I went? I mean, it has been a few years since I have gone but I don't think that honesty is mentioned even once. Am I wrong?

You don't covenant to be a good/kind person in the temple. The covenants there have nothing to do with the golden rule (with the small exception of not committing adultery, subset of chastity). You are covenanting to be the church's bitch in the temple. It is all about binding you to doing whatever the church asks of you. There is no honesty covenant. There is no kindness covenant. The temple isn't about promoting those types of values.

The core principle of the endowment is binding you to do everything you are told. The core principle has never changed and will not change. MG is correct. Everything that has been changed was superfluous.

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:59 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5934
fetchface wrote:
Really!?!? When did I covenant to be honest in the temple? Was I sleeping through that part every time I went?


You seem to forget the first, catchall covenant. The Law of the Gospel.

I remember trying to itemize that once upon a time, to see how I might be doing in ticking off that step. I assume one would have to nail down exactly what Mormon Doctrine is first, always wondering if that might be the Gospel as restored by Joseph Smith or that practiced by the modern church.

Perhaps Denver Snuffer could help us answer that question.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:10 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:38 am
Posts: 1025
RockSlider wrote:
You seem to forget the first, catchall covenant. The Law of the Gospel.

Ahh, yes. Language so vague it can mean anything. The law of the "good news." Extremely descriptive.

It's this type of squishy language that drives an analytic person like me up the wall. It makes me want to scream. Other people seem to eat it up because they get to play the "figure out the hidden meaning" game. "I learn sooo much every time I go to the temple." How many times have I heard that and wondered if they actually learned something or if they were just inventing connections in their own mind? I'm now sure it's the latter.

If it can mean anything, it means nothing.

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:11 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 13431
mentalgymnast wrote:
I would respond to this if there was anything more than a more or less shallow, unproductive response on your part. Nothing to see here.

Regards,
MG


Your response does not lend itself to a productive/civil conversation and/or discussion. It does lead us down a road that ultimately leads to a cul-de-sac/dead end where we find ourselves going round and round wasting each other's time. Rather than leading us in an unproductive/uncivil direction, you might want to add substantively to the discussion?

Regards,

Doc

© 2017 Doctor CamNC4Me. All rights reserved. Copying, quoting, or citing this copyrighted work in whole or part without the written permission of the author is prohibited. Violation of this copyright, even for personal or not-for-profit use, is a serious criminal offense and is subject to federal prosecution.

_________________
I have Mental Gymnast on ignore until he makes amends with Grindael, and both Grindael and IHAQ start posting again. I will not allow a troll to drive off two great board members without taking a stand.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:17 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
Morley wrote:
Wow.

mentalgymnast wrote:
Care to elaborate?


Sure. What you wrote is pure gibberish.

What does the following even mean?

mentalgymnast wrote:
Adam=God
Based on underlying principles of eternal family, kinship, kingdoms, sealings, etc. Brigham spun off from there.

Doctrinal development from there on out.


How are "underlying principles of eternal family, kinship, kingdoms, sealings" related to the prophet Brigham Young's teaching of 'Adam is God'?



mentalgymnast wrote:
Black skin
Brigham's readings of BofA. Underlying principles of 'God's chosen people', natural divisions between peoples, blessings predicated upon righteousness, etc.

Doctrinal development from there on out.


How are "underlying principles of 'God's chosen people', natural divisions between peoples, blessings predicated upon righteousness" related to the the LDS Church's long and ugly history of racism?


--

By the way, speaking of the 'curse of blackness,' what are the general, unchanging principles and doctrines straight from Our Redeemer that are gluing together this 1949 official LDS First Presidency Statement:

The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”

President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.”

The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.


Please don't tell me to read a book. The answer isn't in Charlie Harrell's book. You're the one making the argument. Please use your own words.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:31 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
delete


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:44 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
Morley wrote:

How are "underlying principles of eternal family, kinship, kingdoms, sealings" related to the prophet Brigham Young's teaching of 'Adam is God'?


Quote:
In a special conference on August 28, 1852, Young explained in greater detail the mechanism by which celestial beings like Adam and Eve could give birth to mortal offspring. According to Young, when a couple first become gods and goddesses, they first begin to create spiritual offspring. Then, they begin creating "mortal tabernacles" in which those spirits can dwell, by going to a newly created world, where they: "eat and drink of the fruits of the corporal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies, to enable them according to the established laws to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children" (Young 1852b, p. 13). This is what Adam and Eve did, Young said, and "Adam is my Father". (Young 1852b, p. 13).

On February 19, 1854, Young reiterated the doctrine in a sermon.[35] He also reiterated the doctrine at the October 1854 general conference,[36] in a sermon that was reported to have "held the vast audience as it were spellbound"[37] In the October conference, Young is reported as clarifying that Adam and Eve were "natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father."[38]

When Young discussed the doctrine again in early 1857, he emphasized again that "to become acquainted with our Father and our God" was "one of the first principles of the doctrine of salvation", and that "no man can enjoy or be prepared for eternal life without that knowledge".[39] Nevertheless, he later said:

Whether Adam is the personage that we should consider Our Heavenly Father, or not, is considerable of a mystery to a good many. I do not care for one moment how that is; it is no matter whether we are to consider Him our God, or whether His Father, or his Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species of one family and Jesus Christ is also of our species.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine


This is the quote from Brigham Young that I was thinking of when I said the there were certain principles that he was alluding to when he taught the doctrine of Adam/God. Underlying principles of "eternal family, kinship, kingdoms" are play with this formulation of doctrine. Sealings? Nothing said directly, but one could make a connection between the ducks he's lining up in a row to formulate this doctrine and the sealing power being a component and/or necessary in order for contractual agreements to be made between God and man.

Morley wrote:
How are "underlying principles of 'God's chosen people', natural divisions between peoples, blessings predicated upon righteousness" related to the the LDS Church's long and ugly history of racism?


Brigham did it...again. And, again, I think the underlying principles of "eternal family, kinship, kingdoms" are at play. He was also big on adoption and kingdom creation. These principles interplay with the doctrine formulations that he was sorting out as he was engaging in his own brand of speculative theology. Wasn't it he and Orson Pratt that went the rounds with their own views on speculative theology? In that day and time when things were fresh off the press...the restoration of authority/keys...the heavens were open, but so were minds and hearts to new/novel ways of interpreting true and everlasting principles into an evolving doctrine that later...through collaborative effort between God and man...settled into place.

Brigham Young, I think, was big on chosen people to the extent that he had the Deseret Alphabet being taught and ZCMI and other business institutions catering to the "chosen"/separate people of God. The underlying principle (a law, fact, reality...in an eternal sense) of 'God's people', which I said earlier doesn't...in principle...have the negative and/or elitist meaning that some have attached to it. Rather it means chosen in the sense of 'mission', 'purpose', 'calling', 'responsibility', 'willingness', 'potential reward/blessing', etc. Brigham took principles that may have connections with eternal 'law and fact' and bent/twisted them in ways that had positive effect...but also negative effects connected with his own cultural baggage and artifacts of tradition that were part and parcel of the milieu in which he was raised/indoctrinated in.

Doctrines evolved, and here we are today. Eternal families. Sealing ordinances for the dead. Dovetailing apparently conflicting BofM teachings on race/reward/cursings, etc.

In the end, we end up arguing over what are eternal principles...laws and facts underlying 'hard truths'.

I'm arguing that principles remain the same. They may be interpreted/applied correctly...but sometimes incorrectly. As a result, doctrines may evolve.

But...

Quote:
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.


It's the appendages that may either stay in place or they may be discarded based on various factors/variables that come into play.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:00 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
Morley wrote:
How are "underlying principles of 'God's chosen people', natural divisions between peoples, blessings predicated upon righteousness" related to the the LDS Church's long and ugly history of racism?


mentalgymnast wrote:
Brigham did it...again. And, again, I think the underlying principles of "eternal family, kinship, kingdoms" are at play. He was also big on adoption and kingdom creation. These principles interplay with the doctrine formulations that he was sorting out as he was engaging in his own brand of speculative theology. Wasn't it he and Orson Pratt that went the rounds with their own views on speculative theology? In that day and time when things were fresh off the press...the restoration of authority/keys...the heavens were open, but so were minds and hearts to new/novel ways of interpreting true and everlasting principles into an evolving doctrine that later...through collaborative effort between God and man...settled into place.

Brigham Young, I think, was big on chosen people to the extent that he had the Deseret Alphabet being taught and ZCMI and other business institutions catering to the "chosen"/separate people of God. The underlying principle (a law, fact, reality...in an eternal sense) of 'God's people', which I said earlier doesn't...in principle...have the negative and/or elitist meaning that some have attached to it. Rather it means chosen in the sense of 'mission', 'purpose', 'calling', 'responsibility', 'willingness', 'potential reward/blessing', etc. Brigham took principles that may have connections with eternal 'law and fact' and bent/twisted them in ways that had positive effect...but also negative effects connected with his own cultural baggage and artifacts of tradition that were part and parcel of the milieu in which he was raised/indoctrinated in.

Doctrines evolved, and here we are today. Eternal families. Sealing ordinances for the dead. Dovetailing apparently conflicting BofM teachings on race/reward/cursings, etc.

In the end, we end up arguing over what are eternal principles...laws and facts underlying 'hard truths'.

I'm arguing that principles remain the same. They may be interpreted/applied correctly...but sometimes incorrectly. As a result, doctrines may evolve.



What does this have to do with more than a hundred years of the Church's institutionalized racism?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:14 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
I have a question wrote:
Specifically, what part of the [Negro] doctrine may have been in error in relation to the pure principle that skin colour denotes righteousness?


What do mean? "...pure principle that skin colour denotes righteousness"?

I don't think "skin color" can be determined to be a "pure principle" that "denotes righteousness", can it? You can come up with some scriptural references or things that early brethren might of said, etc., but all that does is help us understand that men throughout time have had prejudices/biases and have played favorites...been racists. And that isn't anything that can successfully be argued against, IMO.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:24 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
MG--

You keep bring up this quote, then you argue for something else, entirely. Why is this quote even there?


Quote:
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.


What does it have to do with kinship and kingdoms? Or black skin curses? Where are kinship and kingdoms and race mentioned as fundamental LDS doctrines or principles.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:25 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
Morley wrote:
What does this have to do with more than a hundred years of the Church's institutionalized racism?


Men thinking that they were acting upon principle. And in a way, they were. Principles/behaviors that they were raised with, etc. But those principles conflicted with principles that...one would hope...are eternal principles which, if understood correctly, lead towards doctrine is is all inclusive. Inasmuch as all are equally loved by God and that He has a plan...based upon love...that will encourage the progress/development of all of His children.

So Brigham was a man of time that had principles. Learned eternal principles. And mixed them up into some speculative doctrine/practice that later found itself wanting in regards to correct application of eternal principles. The institution kept them in place. Afterall, a prophet taught it, right?

The thing is, it may actually be ONLY God that fully understands principles/doctrines/truths and the interplay between them. Men struggle along the way to conform/adapt to God's understanding or way of thinking.

"My ways are not your ways...My thoughts are not your thoughts."

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:29 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 7644
Location: What does the fox say?
So outside of the list of generic christian doctrine you provided, every other bit of "Mormon doctrine" is subject to being declared "of their times" and tossed out as chaff.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:34 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
Morley wrote:

How are "underlying principles of eternal family, kinship, kingdoms, sealings" related to the prophet Brigham Young's teaching of 'Adam is God'?


mentalgymnast wrote:

Quote:
In a special conference on August 28, 1852, Young explained in greater detail the mechanism by which celestial beings like Adam and Eve could give birth to mortal offspring. According to Young, when a couple first become gods and goddesses, they first begin to create spiritual offspring. Then, they begin creating "mortal tabernacles" in which those spirits can dwell, by going to a newly created world, where they: "eat and drink of the fruits of the corporal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies, to enable them according to the established laws to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children" (Young 1852b, p. 13). This is what Adam and Eve did, Young said, and "Adam is my Father". (Young 1852b, p. 13).

On February 19, 1854, Young reiterated the doctrine in a sermon.[35] He also reiterated the doctrine at the October 1854 general conference,[36] in a sermon that was reported to have "held the vast audience as it were spellbound"[37] In the October conference, Young is reported as clarifying that Adam and Eve were "natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father."[38]

When Young discussed the doctrine again in early 1857, he emphasized again that "to become acquainted with our Father and our God" was "one of the first principles of the doctrine of salvation", and that "no man can enjoy or be prepared for eternal life without that knowledge".[39] Nevertheless, he later said:

Whether Adam is the personage that we should consider Our Heavenly Father, or not, is considerable of a mystery to a good many. I do not care for one moment how that is; it is no matter whether we are to consider Him our God, or whether His Father, or his Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species of one family and Jesus Christ is also of our species.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine


This is the quote from Brigham Young that I was thinking of when I said the there were certain principles that he was alluding to when he taught the doctrine of Adam/God. Underlying principles of "eternal family, kinship, kingdoms" are play with this formulation of doctrine. Sealings? Nothing said directly, but one could make a connection between the ducks he's lining up in a row to formulate this doctrine and the sealing power being a component and/or necessary in order for contractual agreements to be made between God and man.




That we are all literal children of an Adam-God (per BY) doesn't suggest eternal family, kingdoms, or sealing. That's nowhere in this passage. You're reaching.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:36 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
Morley wrote:
MG--

You keep bring up this quote, then you argue for something else, entirely. Why is this quote even there?


Quote:
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.


What does it have to do with kinship and kingdoms? Or black skin curses? Where are kinship and kingdoms and race mentioned as fundamental LDS doctrines or principles.


Everything sits on the foundation of this ONE fundamental truth. If that truth is 'in play' then other truths/doctrines/principles can come into play and be dealt with one way or the other. Without it, we are diverted into other directions/paths that don't allow for speculative theology...including Mormonism's speculative theology...which are based upon that ONE fundamental truth.

We end up in the 'philosophies of men' camp. In the weeds, so to speak. Then, IMO, we get lost and can't see the forest through the trees.

Nephi/Lehi's vision of ToL and the associated narrative come into view. Folks lost/wandering, etc.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:38 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
Morley wrote:
You're reaching.


That's what a mentalgymnast does. :wink:

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:40 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
SteelHead wrote:
So outside of the list of generic christian doctrine you provided, every other bit of "Mormon doctrine" is subject to being declared "of their times" and tossed out as chaff.


That's true. Unless one believes in and/or takes stock in the restoration narrative. Which I do.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:42 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
mentalgymnast wrote:
Morley wrote:
What does this have to do with more than a hundred years of the Church's institutionalized racism?


Men thinking that they were acting upon principle. And in a way, they were. Principles/behaviors that they were raised with, etc. But those principles conflicted with principles that...one would hope...are eternal principles which, if understood correctly, lead towards doctrine is is all inclusive. Inasmuch as all are equally loved by God and that He has a plan...based upon love...that will encourage the progress/development of all of His children.

So Brigham was a man of time that had principles. Learned eternal principles. And mixed them up into some speculative doctrine/practice that later found itself wanting in regards to correct application of eternal principles. The institution kept them in place. Afterall, a prophet taught it, right?

The thing is, it may actually be ONLY God that fully understands principles/doctrines/truths and the interplay between them. Men struggle along the way to conform/adapt to God's understanding or way of thinking.

"My ways are not your ways...My thoughts are not your thoughts."

Regards,
MG


Not, as you say, "Men thinking that they were acting upon principle." Prophets thinking they were acting on principle.

But not. Not delivering God's message. Delivering their own. Constantly and consistently.

Racism, I'm sure you'll agree, is evil. Why have prophets if they are delivering evil.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:45 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
mentalgymnast wrote:

The thing is, it may actually be ONLY God that fully understands principles/doctrines/truths and the interplay between them. Men struggle along the way to conform/adapt to God's understanding or way of thinking.

"My ways are not your ways...My thoughts are not your thoughts."



Don't blame it on God.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:06 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
mentalgymnast wrote:
Morley wrote:
You're reaching.


That's what a mentalgymnast does. : wink:

Regards,
MG


And that is the problem.

You send us off to read books or articles, to navigate extensive quotes, all that you maintain say things they don't. When someone challenges you, you shrug and say, "Gee, I was just kidding!" or "Just throwing stuff against the wall (winkie face)." Which is why your arguments aren't taken seriously.

Many here engage you with good will and charity, but don't get the impression that said attitude is reciprocated.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:14 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 am
Posts: 2799
Morley wrote:
MG--

You keep bring up this quote, then you argue for something else, entirely. Why is this quote even there?


Quote:
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.


What does it have to do with kinship and kingdoms? Or black skin curses? Where are kinship and kingdoms and race mentioned as fundamental LDS doctrines or principles.

mentalgymnast wrote:
Everything sits on the foundation of this ONE fundamental truth. If that truth is 'in play' then other truths/doctrines/principles can come into play and be dealt with one way or the other. Without it, we are diverted into other directions/paths that don't allow for speculative theology...including Mormonism's speculative theology...which are based upon that ONE fundamental truth.

We end up in the 'philosophies of men' camp. In the weeds, so to speak. Then, IMO, we get lost and can't see the forest through the trees.


This may or may not be true, but it still does not address the question.

I can say, "The Earth is our mother" as an addendum to any question I'm answering. And it may even be true and acting on it maybe necessary to our continued existence on this planet. It will still have nothing to do with kinship and kingdoms and cursed skin tone.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: "How To Define Mormon Doctrine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:44 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:39 pm
Posts: 6652
Morley wrote:
You're reaching.


MG wrote:

That's what a mentalgymnast does. : wink:


Morley wrote:
And that is the problem.


Attack mode, here we go. I figured this would happen sooner or later.

I don't see that as a problem at all. I am NOT one of those that thinks that, "The thinking has been done." I see too many people who, IMO, take the path of least resistance and DON'T take the time/effort to think things through. For you to say that this practice of mine is a "problem", I think is a bit disingenuous.

Morley wrote:
You send us off to read books or articles, to navigate extensive quotes, all that you maintain say things they don't.


That is a wild generalization that you can not prove to be fact one way or the other. The fact IS, I have read the books that I have linked to, etc., and my thinking HAS been influenced directly by what other folks have researched and thoughtfully considered/discussed. Again, you are mischaracterizing what is actually the truth. That is not only disingenuous, it is untrue.

Morley wrote:
When someone challenges you, you shrug and say, "Gee, I was just kidding!"...


So, I can say, "That's what a mentalgymnast does", and that's the conclusion you come to? That is unwarranted and, well, untrue. I wasn't 'just kidding" when I'm doing mentalgymnastics. I'm serious, but speculative.

Morley wrote:
...or "Just throwing stuff against the wall (winkie face)."


Well, yes, I'll plead 'guilty' to that at times. But I don't see why that is a concern or problem of yours. If you don't want to engage, don't. But, truth be told, I appreciate it when folks DO engage and ask questions rather than just tossing stuff off with personal insults, etc. It's worth my time if I'm able to stimulate my own thinking and hopefully that of others.
Which is why your arguments aren't taken seriously.

Morley wrote:
Many here engage you with good will and charity, but don't get the impression that said attitude is reciprocated.


Not quite sure where you're going with this. The thing is, I DO engage OTHERS with good will and charity and would expect, hopefully, to be treated the same way. But it looks...if I'm reading you correctly on this post...we may have reached an end in our discussion. That's fine. But thanks for what we had. It stimulated some more thinking in my noggin. :wink:

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bret Ripley, candygal, Fence Sitter, Google [Bot] and 32 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group