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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:26 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
deacon blues wrote:
[

Deacon:
I don't think that it happened in an instantaneous event. It may have happened in a more or less natural way/process as intermarriage/mixing occurred among groups. Not to say that the language used by Nephi and Co. might not represent the fact that they saw it as a cursing from God. Similar language and perceptions are evident in the Old Testament in the Old World as prophets interpreted the workings of God in their own time/culture.

Regards,
MG


Hey deacon. This last comment in your post was made by me. :smile:

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:51 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
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deacon blues wrote:
[ Perhaps the Lamanites intermarried with natives...


It seems rather probable that they did.

deacon blues wrote:
The Nephites, self-assured in their superiority, segregated themselves from these darker skin natives...


That seems possible also.

deacon blues wrote:
...until the time of the century before Christ, when, in the days of Alma the Younger, everybody started mixing it up; or perhaps that was after Jesus's visit.


After hundreds of years, that would also make sense. There were migrations/movements of people/populations from one place to another. It seems very probable that they mixed things up a bit.

Think of our day. Racist practices/teachings separated the African American race from intermarrying within the LDS Church. Things changed...and now they do. I home teach a biracial family with husband and wife married/sealed in the temple. Children sealed to parents. Forty plus years ago this wouldn't have happened. Now it does. Culture/practice/biases changed.

Similar dynamics of one form or another going on way back when?

deacon blues wrote:
I've worked through various possible scenarios myself, but then we have to go back to an Iron Age culture, with writing, horses, cows, wheat, etc, that disappeared.


Or assimilated into the surrounding cultures/peoples. If you haven't read this book, you may want to pick it up:

https://www.amazon.com/Traditions-Fathe ... 6W9R0PHZ4M

deacon blues wrote:
I think in terms of odds, that it's about 90% to 8% that the Book of Mormon is not historical.


I guess you meant 90% to 80%? :smile:

May I recommend another book if you haven't already read it? It made an impact on my life/views back at a critical time in my own faith journey.

https://www.amazon.com/Hand-Mormon-Amer ... 0195168887

deacon blues wrote:
Throw in the Papyri...


From a faithful perspective I don't see another alternative other than the Catalyst Theory. For a discussion for and against, go here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/649 ... f-abraham/

and here:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2013/06/27/ ... f-abraham/

deacon blues wrote:
...and Kinderhook...


This doesn't bother me like it used to. There are all kinds of sources online to research this issue. Make sure you study/look at as many as you can.

deacon blues wrote:
Sorry if my lack of skills messed up this post. Thanks for your patience, MG. And your thoughtful responses. I wish you went to my Gospel Doctrine class


The problem is, in Gospel Doctrine Class you'll probably not get all the information you need. The church meetings generally promote/encourage edification rather than disagreement or what might be considered by some to be contentious. If you look around and reach out a bit you may be able to find folks that are willing to discuss these issue with you from a faithful/questioning perspective.

BTW, thank you for your kind words. I don't get those very often around these parts. :wink:

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:59 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 11560
mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:
It doesn't really solve the problem...


How so?


It supposed to written by Nephi. Mixing would take generations, and this mixing is supposed to be happening to Nephi's group as well to account for their later numbers. You create more problems by trying to solve one. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:08 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 6374
Themis wrote:
It supposed to written by Nephi. Mixing would take generations, and this mixing is supposed to be happening to Nephi's group as well to account for their later numbers. You create more problems by trying to solve one. :lol:


This nails the coffin shut on the ‘skin colour changed generationally’ excuse for Book of Mormon racism.
It’s also interesting that members prefer to play the generation game, rather than stick up for Gods ability to instantaneously change a persons skin colour when they do something wrong.

When you really consider this topic, it seems to have been written by someone with no comprehension of genetics, trying to explain where the American Indians came from and why their skin was a different colour...

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“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:44 am 
Area Authority

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 639
mentalgymnast wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
[

Deacon:
I don't think that it happened in an instantaneous event. It may have happened in a more or less natural way/process as intermarriage/mixing occurred among groups. Not to say that the language used by Nephi and Co. might not represent the fact that they saw it as a cursing from God. Similar language and perceptions are evident in the Old Testament in the Old World as prophets interpreted the workings of God in their own time/culture.

Regards,
MG


Hey deacon. This last comment in your post was made by me. :smile:

Regards,
MG


I'm sorry. I mixed up the quote process on my post and its too late to change it. :rolleyes:

I know very little about genetics, but the intermarrying with a darker skinned race and the "retaining the dark skin but losing the DNA" hypothesis seems like a bigger stretch than the "Joseph made it up" hypothesis/theory. In light of the papyri/catalyst hypothesis/theory (wow my forward slashes are out of control) It seems possible to mistake imagination for history in the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon. I'll check out the books you reference, but I may have been down that road before, and I think its a dead end.
I enjoy your posts and your thinking, and I will admit I could be mistaken. Heaven knows I have been many times before. Your presence on this site adds a lot. God bless. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:06 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
I have a question wrote:
It’s also interesting that members prefer to play the generation game, rather than stick up for Gods ability to instantaneously change a persons skin colour when they do something wrong.



I'm not disposed to discount this possibility also. The jury is out on what actually occurred. Brant Gardner has his theory. Here is another person's views on 'the curse'.

https://publications.mi.BYU.edu/fullscr ... 92&index=6

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:14 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
deacon blues wrote:
I'll check out the books you reference, but I may have been down that road before, and I think its a dead end.
I enjoy your posts and your thinking, and I will admit I could be mistaken. Heaven knows I have been many times before. Your presence on this site adds a lot. God bless. :smile:


I think the more one reads different points of view the better equipped one is to make wise decisions and do so with a sense of integrity. Also, we should all be open to the possibility of minor/major error(s) when it involves those things which we don't fully understand because of the nature of our being and the available evidence.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:29 am 
Area Authority

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 639
mentalgymnast wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
I'll check out the books you reference, but I may have been down that road before, and I think its a dead end.
I enjoy your posts and your thinking, and I will admit I could be mistaken. Heaven knows I have been many times before. Your presence on this site adds a lot. God bless. :smile:


I think the more one reads different points of view the better equipped one is to make wise decisions and do so with a sense of integrity. Also, we should all be open to the possibility of minor/major error(s) when it involves those things which we don't fully understand because of the nature of our being and the available evidence.

Regards,
MG

Yup. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:24 am 
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Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
Lemmie wrote:
Happening more and more, I notice. For the first 15 years i was at my univerisity it only closed once, on 9/11. In the last 5 it has closed at least 5 or 6 days, all weather related. Be safe, Kish!!


Thanks, Lemmie! It is not looking as bad for our area as it did, but we will probably lose power, and the biggest danger will be possible hurricanes. That's not good.

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