It is currently Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:09 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:18 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Posts: 25677
Location: Off the Deep End
Kishkumen wrote:
Thanks, Jersey. I will. I am mostly distracted. Phone calls from relatives all over, expressing concern. I was not concerned until forecasts started to predict a more westerly trajectory. Still, we stocked up on water and other essentials. I am still hoping we are not hit. The university closed Friday and Monday. The governor shut the entire school system down, in fact.


Thank you. I'm holding you to it.

_________________
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb


Stay close to the people who feel like sunlight ~ Arsu Shaikh


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 7572
Location: What does the fox say?
Be safe Kish.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:40 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 6374
mentalgymnast wrote:
The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:


How about defining exactly what you mean by “true”?

_________________
“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:35 am 
God

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm
Posts: 5130
Kishkumen wrote:
Thanks, Jersey. I will. I am mostly distracted. Phone calls from relatives all over, expressing concern. I was not concerned until forecasts started to predict a more westerly trajectory. Still, we stocked up on water and other essentials. I am still hoping we are not hit. The university closed Friday and Monday. The governor shut the entire school system down, in fact.


Image

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:00 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
I have a question wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:


How about defining exactly what you mean by “true”?


What Themis said back on the last page.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:14 am 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
consiglieri wrote:
I think that trying to prove the Book of Mormon "true" in the sense that it really happened actually serves to obstruct any ability to see the truths in it.


The truth(s) in it...for example the visitation of Jesus Christ to the Western Hemisphere...don't really have any weight if it didn't actually happen.

consiglieri wrote:
It is only after discarding the notion I had to prove it really happened that I was opened to the possibility of learning what it really had to say.


So you're referring, more or less, to the moral/ethical teachings? What about the teachings in regards to "the study of ends or purposes." (the teleological meaning). Atonement, prophecies,

http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Prophecy_i ... _of_Mormon

etc.

consiglieri wrote:
So my answer is not yes or no.


I figured as much. :wink:

consiglieri wrote:
It is yes and no.


I don't think, when it comes down to it, this is a satisfactory answer in regards to the BofM. It is self evident that the BofM itself forces a more traditional answer. True...divine origins and real Nephites/Lamanites/Jaradites, Jesus to the Western Hemisphere...or not.

There really is no in between.

BTW, that doesn't mean one has to accept the racist tendencies of writers/compilers evident in the BofM to be 'true'. :wink:

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:28 am 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 5590
Kishkumen wrote:
Thanks, Jersey. I will. I am mostly distracted. Phone calls from relatives all over, expressing concern. I was not concerned until forecasts started to predict a more westerly trajectory. Still, we stocked up on water and other essentials. I am still hoping we are not hit. The university closed Friday and Monday. The governor shut the entire school system down, in fact.

Happening more and more, I notice. For the first 15 years i was at my univerisity it only closed once, on 9/11. In the last 5 it has closed at least 5 or 6 days, all weather related. Be safe, Kish!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:08 pm 
Area Authority

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 639
So MG, yes or no, did God make the Lamanite skins black?
If the answer is yes-
Bonus question:

So why, in your opinion MG, did God make the Lamanite skins black?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:20 pm 
God

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm
Posts: 5130
mentalgymnast wrote:
It is self evident that the BofM itself forces a more traditional answer. True...divine origins and real Nephites/Lamanites/Jaradites, Jesus to the Western Hemisphere...or not.

There really is no in between.



I used to think this way, as well, MG.

But the more I have delved in the last decade into works of literature, the more I am finding myself enriched by writing that makes no claim to be relating stories that actually happened.

In this category, I will put pretty much all of Shakespeare's plays, Moby Dick, Look Homeward Angel, All the King's Men, Aerosmith, The Brothers Karamazov, Leaves of Grass, Oedipus Rex, The Republic, Don Quixote, to name but a few.

It is the truth inside the stories that is important to me. Not whether the stories actually happened.

I happen to not believe the stories related in the Book of Mormon actually occurred.

But rather than make the book of less value to me in conveying truth, it actually removed the blinders I was wearing and allowed me to receive what I think is the more important truth the book can convey.

This is not easy for me to express in words, but maybe if we continue the dialogue, it will be helpful to me in being able to articulate my position more intelligibly.

I would say there is more to the issue than just the Book of Mormon is true or false--there is no in between.

I think there is not only an in between, there is a beyond.

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 16330
Location: Northern Virginia
mentalgymnast wrote:
The truth(s) in it...for example the visitation of Jesus Christ to the Western Hemisphere...don't really have any weight if it didn't actually happen.


I once would have agreed with you, but the corollary to that is that only literal stories (things that actually happened) "have any weight." That's simply untenable based on a cursory look through scripture and history. Meaning and impact do not rely on literal occurrences.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:46 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
deacon blues wrote:
So MG, yes or no, did God make the Lamanite skins black?


As in, "poof!"...?

I don't think so.

deacon blues wrote:
If the answer is yes-


I don't think it is, in the way that you might be thinking.

"Abracadabra!", skins are black. Wham bang.

"What the heck?!" Says Larry the Lamanite.

I don't think so.

deacon blues wrote:
Bonus question:

So why, in your opinion MG, did God make the Lamanite skins black?


I don't think that it happened in an instantaneous event. It may have happened in a more or less natural way/process as intermarriage/mixing occurred among groups. Not to say that the language used by Nephi and Co. might not represent the fact that they saw it as a cursing from God. Similar language and perceptions are evident in the Old Testament in the Old World as prophets interpreted the workings of God in their own time/culture.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Last edited by mentalgymnast on Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:58 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
consiglieri wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
It is self evident that the BofM itself forces a more traditional answer. True...divine origins and real Nephites/Lamanites/Jaradites, Jesus to the Western Hemisphere...or not.

There really is no in between.



I used to think this way, as well, MG.

But the more I have delved in the last decade into works of literature, the more I am finding myself enriched by writing that makes no claim to be relating stories that actually happened.

In this category, I will put pretty much all of Shakespeare's plays, Moby Dick, Look Homeward Angel, All the King's Men, Aerosmith, The Brothers Karamazov, Leaves of Grass, Oedipus Rex, The Republic, Don Quixote, to name but a few.


As you know, there is a difference between the BofM and these other creative works of literature. The Book of Mormon makes the claim to be an actual artifact from a lost world. When one reads these other works of literature it is readily apparent that they are not making the claims that the BofM makes for itself.

consiglieri wrote:
It is the truth inside the stories that is important to me. Not whether the stories actually happened.


And that's OK.

consiglieri wrote:
I happen to not believe the stories related in the Book of Mormon actually occurred.


And that's OK too.

consiglieri wrote:
But rather than make the book of less value to me in conveying truth, it actually removed the blinders I was wearing and allowed me to receive what I think is the more important truth the book can convey.


So does that include Jesus being the Christ? Is there any more important truth that you can think of that the BofM teaches?

consiglieri wrote:
This is not easy for me to express in words, but maybe if we continue the dialogue, it will be helpful to me in being able to articulate my position more intelligibly.


I know there are active members of the church who think as you do. And I am comfortable attending church and sitting along side them in the pew. Believe it or not, I can see where you're coming from. During my faith journey I was at one time basically where you are now.

consiglieri wrote:
I would say there is more to the issue than just the Book of Mormon is true or false--there is no in between.


What is that "more" of which you speak?

consiglieri wrote:
I think there is not only an in between, there is a beyond.


That's interesting. What does that "beyond" allow for? Where exactly has that taken you to this point in time?

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:11 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
Runtu wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
The truth(s) in it...for example the visitation of Jesus Christ to the Western Hemisphere...don't really have any weight if it didn't actually happen.


I once would have agreed with you, but the corollary to that is that only literal stories (things that actually happened) "have any weight."


That's not what I'm saying.

Runtu wrote:
That's simply untenable based on a cursory look through scripture and history. Meaning and impact do not rely on literal occurrences.


I think I know where you're coming from here. The thing is, I see no other choice than to look at the BofM as a 'special case' relative to other great works of literature. The meaning and impact of the BofM is directly connected to the fact that it makes the claim of being an ACTUAL artifact from a REAL lost world. One in which the CREATOR himself came to visit. Other stories, LOTR's, etc., are great creative works...but they don't claim to be anything else but that.

I really don't think that we can honestly lump in the Book of Mormon with other works of literature. I've gone that route in my thinking, but I just couldn't make it work. The BofM either IS or ISN'T what it claims to be...and it is THAT which makes the difference. There are other books...many of them, in fact...that I have personally enjoyed MUCH more than the BofM, but I have never seen those books as potentially being something other than what they are. Great works of art/literature.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 7572
Location: What does the fox say?
If there were only any evidence for this idea..... instead all of the evidence contraindicates it.

Weird.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:38 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 11560
deacon blues wrote:
So MG, yes or no, did God make the Lamanite skins black?
If the answer is yes-
Bonus question:

So why, in your opinion MG, did God make the Lamanite skins black?


Some members have accepted much of what science and the academic community tells us such as an old earth and people migrating to the America's well over 10k years ago. This kind of member will have to reinterpret the text to mean something else. I suspect most would eventually go to a mixing over time. It doesn't really solve the problem, and the reinterpretation has nothing to do with the text or what Joseph Smith has taught and claimed.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:57 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
SteelHead wrote:
If there were only any evidence for this idea..... instead all of the evidence contraindicates it.

Weird.


Everytime I hear you guys say, "all the evidence"...I have to ask myself, "Is THAT really true?" More often than not, I go away realizing that, no, that's not always true.

What a trite and easy thing for you to say.

Black and white thinking. It bugs me. Just like I'm sure it bugs you. :wink:

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:01 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 7572
Location: What does the fox say?
Please provide one piece of physical western hemisphere evidence that supports the Book of Mormon narrative.

Weren't you the one insisting that the Book of Mormon has a literal element to it? Seems pretty black and white at that point.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Last edited by SteelHead on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:02 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
Themis wrote:
It doesn't really solve the problem...


How so?

Themis wrote:
...and the reinterpretation has nothing to do with the text...


That needn't be a big surprise. The text doesn't 'tell all'. It only tells us what went on in the mind of the writer/compiler.

Themis wrote:
...or what Joseph Smith has taught and claimed.


Joseph, of course, had his own understandings of how the world worked. This shouldn't be a big surprise either.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:11 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 6089
SteelHead wrote:
Please provide one piece of physical western hemisphere evidence that supports the Book of Mormon narrative.


The BofM itself. If the BofM is a narrative of a lost and fallen people who existed two thousand plus years ago, one would suspect that this record would be the primary resource/evidence. That is the direction that Brant Gardner has taken, rather successfully I think.

SteelHead wrote:
Weren't you the one insisting that the Book of Mormon has a literal element to it? Seems pretty black and white at that point.


Yes, I don't see any other faithful way around it. The BofM is what it claims to be, or it is fraudulent. Unlike Consig., I don't see a middle ground on this point.

Regards,
MG

_________________
Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 7572
Location: What does the fox say?
mentalgymnast wrote:
SteelHead wrote:
Please provide one piece of physical western hemisphere evidence that supports the Book of Mormon narrative.


The BofM itself. If the BofM is a narrative of a lost and fallen people who existed two thousand plus years ago, one would suspect that this record would be the primary resource/evidence. That is the direction that Brant Gardner has taken, rather successfully I think.

SteelHead wrote:
Weren't you the one insisting that the Book of Mormon has a literal element to it? Seems pretty black and white at that point.


Yes, I don't see any other faithful way around it. The BofM is what it claims to be, or it is fraudulent. Unlike Consig., I don't see a middle ground on this point.

Regards,
MG


The Book of Mormon itself is not evidence that it is an ancient document as you can not produce a copy of it older than 1830. It is a narrative. The story is unupported in the archeological, dna, and anthropological records. The clan of the cave bear series does not serve as a historical record.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:46 pm 
Area Authority

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 639
mentalgymnast wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
So MG, yes or no, did God make the Lamanite skins black?


As in, "poof!"...?

I don't think so.

Deacon:
[We agree :smile: sort of.]

deacon blues wrote:
If the answer is yes-


I don't think it is, in the way that you might be thinking.

"Abracadabra!", skins are black. Wham bang.

"What the heck?!" Says Larry the Lamanite.

I don't think so.


Deacon:
[But God certainly has the power to do so. I mean supernaturally/magically; At least I think God does.]

deacon blues wrote:
Bonus question:

So why, in your opinion MG, did God make the Lamanite skins black?



Deacon:
I don't think that it happened in an instantaneous event. It may have happened in a more or less natural way/process as intermarriage/mixing occurred among groups. Not to say that the language used by Nephi and Co. might not represent the fact that they saw it as a cursing from God. Similar language and perceptions are evident in the Old Testament in the Old World as prophets interpreted the workings of God in their own time/culture.

Regards,
MG




Deacon:
[ Perhaps the Lamanites intermarried with natives who migrated in the distant past from Mongolia, or in the not so distant past, from the tower of Babel. The Nephites, self-assured in their superiority, segregated themselves from these darker skin natives, until the time of the century before Christ, when, in the days of Alma the Younger, everybody started mixing it up; or perhaps that was after Jesus's visit. I've worked through various possible scenarios myself, but then we have to go back to an Iron Age culture, with writing, horses, cows, wheat, etc, that disappeared. I think in terms of odds, that it's about 90% to 8% that the Book of Mormon is not historical. Throw in the Papyri and Kinderhook, and it's more like 95% to 3%.]

Sorry if my lack of skills messed up this post. Thanks for your patience, MG. And your thoughtful responses. I wish you went to my Gospel Doctrine class


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Analytics, cwald, Doctor CamNC4Me, Doctor Steuss, DrW, Fence Sitter, Google [Bot], kairos, Mittens, moinmoin, oliblish, RockSlider, Stem and 44 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group