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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:56 am 
God
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Here is the passage from the Book of Mormon where Jesus says the Lamanites will build the New Jerusalem and the Gentiles will be allowed to "assist" them if the Gentiles repent:


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3 Nephi 21:14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent;
* * *

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.


I will see if I can find the Bruce R. McConkie quote interpreting this passage as saying the opposite.

But just the fact the Book of Mormon gives the Gentiles a secondary and "assisting" role to the "remnant of Jacob" (i.e., the Lamanites) in building the New Jerusalem seems significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:02 am 
Sunbeam

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Themis wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
The Bible is every bit as "racist" as the Book of Mormon. So where does that leave the discussion?


It's probably worse, but I don't think that helps either text.


Which is my point. Every criticism leveled at Mormonism can also be fairly leveled at Christianity in general. Either you have faith or you don't. And if you don't, what's the point in spending a lot of time discussing it? The scriptures describe the Holy Ghost as an "unspeakable gift." Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like, either logically or emotionally. You either ask in faith or you don't. Obsessing over "Book of Mormon racism" gets no one anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:17 am 
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Here is the quote from Bruce R. McConkie interpreting this passage exactly the opposite of what it says:

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"An occasional whiff of nonsense goes around the church acclaiming that the Lamanites will build the temple in New Jerusalem and that Ephraim and others will come to their assistance. This Book of Mormon passage refers not to the Lamanites but to the whole house of Israel. The temple will be built by Ephraim meaning the Church and all other tribes will come in due course to receive blessings." (New Witness for Articles of Faith, p. 519)


So here we have a non-racist passage (by which I mean non-white supremacist passage) in the Book of Mormon being interpreted in a racist manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:35 am 
God
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Viriatu wrote:
Which is my point. Every criticism leveled at Mormonism can also be fairly leveled at Christianity in general. Either you have faith or you don't. And if you don't, what's the point in spending a lot of time discussing it? The scriptures describe the Holy Ghost as an "unspeakable gift." Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like, either logically or emotionally. You either ask in faith or you don't. Obsessing over "Book of Mormon racism" gets no one anywhere.


Ahh the old can leave it but can't leave it alone ploy mixed with a dose of true Scotsmen falacy . Aimed to kill criticism and evaluation of the Book of Mormon. Sorry we like discussing and critically analyzing the Book of Mormon. Sunlight is the strongest disinfectant.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:43 am 
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Viriatu wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?


The Bible is every bit as "racist" as the Book of Mormon. So where does that leave the discussion?


God is cool with racism?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:55 am 
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You tell me, Doc.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:58 am 
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I have no idea whether God is cool with racism, but it is apparent that some who write scripture in the name of God are inclined to put racist sentiments into God's mouth.

Racist sentiments that tend to align with the racist sentiments of the author.

The Book of Mormon is unusual in that, as Kishkumen has pointed out, the handful of racist verses seem to be contradicted to some degree by the meta-narrative.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:33 pm 
God

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Viriatu wrote:
Which is my point. Every criticism leveled at Mormonism can also be fairly leveled at Christianity in general.


That's an admission of guilt. It doesn't help to point the other groups is just as bad as your group.

Quote:
Either you have faith or you don't. And if you don't, what's the point in spending a lot of time discussing it?


Maybe some think believing false things is not as good as believing things that are true. It's also not an either or.

Quote:
The scriptures describe the Holy Ghost as an "unspeakable gift." Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like, either logically or emotionally. You either ask in faith or you don't. Obsessing over "Book of Mormon racism" gets no one anywhere.


Do you have any references to this, because I wonder why the church teaches the opposite and spends time trying to describe and help people learn what the witness of the HG is like? We certainly did as missionaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
The scriptures describe the Holy Ghost as an "unspeakable gift." Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like, either logically or emotionally. You either ask in faith or you don't. Obsessing over "Book of Mormon racism" gets no one anywhere.


Do you have any references to this, because I wonder why the church teaches the opposite and spends time trying to describe and help people learn what the witness of the HG is like? We certainly did as missionaries.


If nobody can describe the witness of the Holy Ghost, then nobody can know that they’ve had one.

Interestingly, Dallin H Oaks thinks he can describe it...
Quote:
This may be one of the most important and misunderstood teachings in all the Doctrine and Covenants. The teachings of the Spirit often come as feelings. That fact is of the utmost importance, yet some misunderstand what it means. I have met persons who told me they have never had a witness from the Holy Ghost because they have never felt their bosom “burn within” them.

What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely, the word “burning” in this scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. That is the witness many receive. That is the way revelation works.

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1997/03/teac ... g=eng&_r=1

And Elder Packer thinks you can get confused between the spirit and emotion.

So where does that leave us in terms of the reliability of the spiritual witness?

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Last edited by I have a question on Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:49 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Racist sentiments that tend to align with the racist sentiments of the author.


So do all the other teachings and ideas.

Quote:
The Book of Mormon is unusual in that, as Kishkumen has pointed out, the handful of racist verses seem to be contradicted to some degree by the meta-narrative.


Only because it is not written by the people the text is claiming lived back then. It is a fictional story written by someone in the 1800's. Real Nephite narrators would likely be more consistent in their racism against the Lamanites. Instead you probably have a bible believing narrator claiming both groups are Israelite's. The story is also created to explain who the Indians are and where they came from, so the story line about their future restoration is not surprising. The text also suggests the Lamanites at the end of the story would the ancestors of both Nephi's early group as well as Laman's.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Viriatu wrote:
Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like.


I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:42 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
Sorry we like discussing and critically analyzing the Book of Mormon. Sunlight is the strongest disinfectant.


No need to apologize. And yes, sunlight is the strongest disinfectant. It inhibits the growth of harmful narrow /restricted/limited points of view. :wink:

The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:

There isn't an in between, is there? As with much else in life, we make decisions to gravitate/move one way or another. You've made your choice and are willing to live with it. Fine.

Others have made a different choice and are living with the consequences of that decision. That's fine too.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:43 pm 
God

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consiglieri wrote:
Viriatu wrote:
Not a one of us has the capacity to describe what a witness of the Holy Ghost is like.


I can.


Care to elaborate a bit?

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:45 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:

There isn't an in between, is there?




Fiction is the truth inside the lie.


--Stephen King

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:47 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:

There isn't an in between, is there?




Fiction is the truth inside the lie.


--Stephen King


Is that a yes or a no?

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:08 pm 
God

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mentalgymnast wrote:

The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:

There isn't an in between, is there? As with much else in life, we make decisions to gravitate/move one way or another. You've made your choice and are willing to live with it. Fine.

Others have made a different choice and are living with the consequences of that decision. That's fine too.

Regards,
MG


Whether there is an in between depends on how you define true or not. Most usually define it at least as there being a real group of people migrating from the middle east 3k years ago and leaving behind a record. There is no in between here. It is either true or false.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:12 pm 
God

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Themis wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:

The BofM is either true or it isn't. Now there's a new approach. :smile:

There isn't an in between, is there? As with much else in life, we make decisions to gravitate/move one way or another. You've made your choice and are willing to live with it. Fine.

Others have made a different choice and are living with the consequences of that decision. That's fine too.

Regards,
MG


Whether there is an in between depends on how you define true or not. Most usually define it at least as there being a real group of people migrating from the middle east 3k years ago and leaving behind a record. There is no in between here. It is either true or false.


Yeah, that.

I'm interested in Consig's yes or no answer.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:39 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Yeah, that.

I'm interested in Consig's yes or no answer.

Regards,
MG


What I learned from defending the LDS Church for over a decade is that apologists are so intent on proving the Book of Mormon really happened that they tend to completely overlook the truths it contains.

I would go further.

I think that trying to prove the Book of Mormon "true" in the sense that it really happened actually serves to obstruct any ability to see the truths in it.

It is only after discarding the notion I had to prove it really happened that I was opened to the possibility of learning what it really had to say.

So my answer is not yes or no.

It is yes and no.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:05 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I have no idea whether God is cool with racism, but it is apparent that some who write scripture in the name of God are inclined to put racist sentiments into God's mouth.

Racist sentiments that tend to align with the racist sentiments of the author.

The Book of Mormon is unusual in that, as Kishkumen has pointed out, the handful of racist verses seem to be contradicted to some degree by the meta-narrative.


Thanks for all of these wonderful contributions to the discussion, consiglieri. They have been eye-opening. I have enjoyed them as we prepare for Hurricane Irma. Perhaps at some point I will get back to this thread. For the time being it is educational to follow your insights and arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
I have no idea whether God is cool with racism, but it is apparent that some who write scripture in the name of God are inclined to put racist sentiments into God's mouth.

Racist sentiments that tend to align with the racist sentiments of the author.

The Book of Mormon is unusual in that, as Kishkumen has pointed out, the handful of racist verses seem to be contradicted to some degree by the meta-narrative.


Thanks for all of these wonderful contributions to the discussion, consiglieri. They have been eye-opening. I have enjoyed them as we prepare for Hurricane Irma. Perhaps at some point I will get back to this thread. For the time being it is educational to follow your insights and arguments.


I thought about you and wondered if you were in the area. Promise me you'll post when it's over. We have a hurricane thread down in Paradise.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Thanks, Jersey. I will. I am mostly distracted. Phone calls from relatives all over, expressing concern. I was not concerned until forecasts started to predict a more westerly trajectory. Still, we stocked up on water and other essentials. I am still hoping we are not hit. The university closed Friday and Monday. The governor shut the entire school system down, in fact.


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