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 Post subject: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:08 pm 
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In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:48 pm 
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You BET RACISM IS Mormonism

Idaho state rep shares conspiracy theory accusing Obama of staging Charlottesville

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/poli ... 73127.html

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/idaho- ... ar-AAqtC3q

And HE IS A Mormon

https://www.Facebook.com/bryan.zollinger.10/about

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:01 pm 
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deacon blues wrote:
In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?


It exists. So...what do we do with that?

I say we accept it and acknowledge it's there.

I doubt that Nephi looked at himself as a racist though. :wink:

Neither did Mark E. Petersen.

Are you old enough to remember him? One of the modern day apostles. Nephi to Elder Petersen. Racism has been around a LONG time and in many different places and cultures.

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

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Last edited by mentalgymnast on Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:08 pm 
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MG, you are not helping your cause with this sort of defense . Remember you belong to and church that claims God talks to its leaders.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
MG, you are not helping your cause with this sort of defense . Remember you belong to and church that claims God talks to its leaders.


Could you flesh this out a bit more? I'm seeing a one-liner 'catch all'. But to be honest, I think I know where you'll go with it. Surprise me. :wink:

Keep things on racism though. Let's not go off the rails right away. :smile:

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:28 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
MG, you are not helping your cause with this sort of defense . Remember you belong to and church that claims God talks to its leaders.


Could you flesh this out a bit more? I'm seeing a one-liner 'catch all'. But to be honest, I think I know where you'll go with it. Surprise me. :wink:

Keep things on racism though. Let's not go off the rails right away. :smile:

Regards,
MG

No

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Is the Book of Mormon racist? Yes. Is it colonial? Yes. But is that all one can say of its significance as literature steeped in such a culture? No. The Book of Mormon endeavors to transcend racism, but only partially succeeds. Remember that it is the white Nephites who are destroyed on account of their own wickedness. Remember that it is the white Gentiles who will reject the Gospel and be destroyed by the Lamanites. Remember that in their Christian utopia there is no division among the people. Remember that one of the most important prophets is a Lamanite.

I am not saying that the LDS Church has a good record on racial issues or that its scriptures are not racist, but the Book of Mormon does offer a glimpse of the transcendence of racial divisions.

The Book of Mormon quotes Paul on unity in Christ, adding that there is no black or white in Christ. There is something going on there, something worthwhile.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:58 pm 
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deacon blues wrote:
In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?

Until the current LDS church and LDS excise it from their canon, until they repudiate it as not being the word of god, then their god and the LDS too own it, they own that racism.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Is the Book of Mormon racist? Yes. Is it colonial? Yes. But is that all one can say of its significance as literature steeped in such a culture? No. The Book of Mormon endeavors to transcend racism, but only partially succeeds. Remember that it is the white Nephites who are destroyed on account of their own wickedness. Remember that it is the white Gentiles who will reject the Gospel and be destroyed by the Lamanites. Remember that in their Christian utopia there is no division among the people. Remember that one of the most important prophets is a Lamanite.

I am not saying that the LDS Church has a good record on racial issues or that its scriptures are not racist, but the Book of Mormon does offer a glimpse of the transcendence of racial divisions.

The Book of Mormon quotes Paul on unity in Christ, adding that there is no black or white in Christ. There is something going on there, something worthwhile.


You mean Paul said that too? :surprised:


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:01 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?


It exists. So...what do we do with that?

I say we accept it and acknowledge it's there.

I doubt that Nephi looked at himself as a racist though. :wink:

Neither did Mark E. Petersen.

Are you old enough to remember him? One of the modern day apostles. Nephi to Elder Petersen. Racism has been around a LONG time and in many different places and cultures.

Regards,
MG


And sexism, From Moses to Monson. So how do we get to "as black men have become, so will women become?"
Is President Monson praying as hard as Pres. Kimball did in '78? Are you and me?

I doubt that God really hated Esau. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:18 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
In order to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its racism. How does one do that? is it better to pretend it doesn't exist?


It exists. So...what do we do with that?

I say we accept it and acknowledge it's there.

I doubt that Nephi looked at himself as a racist though. :wink:

Neither did Mark E. Petersen.


Nephi and Peterson were both self-aware white supremacists.
They both thought people with black skin were inferior.
For more than 100 years men who talk with God taught the entire Church that people with black skin were inferior.

What could the Church do?
- say sorry
- remove the still-offending scripture
- learn from its mistakes and apply that learning to new situations

The really troubling question is why Church leaders haven't done those three simple things....what do we do with that?
The fruits of that inaction are members such as Wife With A Purpose. When she says she needs to hear from the First Presidency rather than an anonymous statement of a spokesperson, she has a valid point. We have a poster 'moimoin' who is a serving Bishop and who, on this very forum, discounted Race & The Priesthood as mere PR subterfuge, and stated that Black Skin comes from the Curse of Cain.

Both of those people remain members in full fellowship.
What do we do with that?

The senior Church leadership is 100% white skinned males over 65.
What do we do with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:10 am 
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deacon blues wrote:
... one has to crawl over, under, around, or through its...


I just want to note that Mormon affectation is just the oddest thing. Droopy Dog Holland is just the biggest ____ in the entire Mormon hierarchy and he should never be allowed near a microphone. Why these guys feel the need to attempt to create grandiose language is beyond me. God I hated it when I would read Joseph Smith's early leadership's sermons. It was just... dumb. It was like giving a big, dumb, useless teenager a certificate declaring him the Bestest Most Inspiring Leader Ever and then handing him a pulpit. And then everyone acts like the he was the cat's pajamas.

**Brack**

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:22 am 
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Peterson agrees that the Nephites were likely racist, but contends that instead of this being a 19th century signature, it's further proof of the Book of Mormons authenticity.

Quote:
Personally, I’m quite willing to entertain the possibility that, by the standards of twenty-first-century America, the ancient Nephites (including their prophets) were racists. If they had not been, they would have been anomalies of the first order. I doubt that very many pre-modern people anywhere weren’t racists by the standards of our time. In fact, if I’m in a cheeky mood, I might even contend that an absence of racism in the Book of Mormon could be regarded as proof of a non-ancient origin.

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... hbEFgH3.99

I note he stops short of decrying the racism in the Book of Mormon, and has recently decried calls for the excommunication of white supremacist Wife With A Purpose.
Quote:
There’s much about his letter with which I disagree — among other things, I object to his extrapolation from Ayla Stewart to the entire Church — but I’m especially unhappy with Mr. Fisher’s insinuated demand that she be excommunicated.

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... O8teyov.99

One wonders if Brother Peterson secretly subscribes to the Curse Of Cain theological position...

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:34 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Is the Book of Mormon racist? Yes. Is it colonial? Yes. But is that all one can say of its significance as literature steeped in such a culture? No. The Book of Mormon endeavors to transcend racism, but only partially succeeds. Remember that it is the white Nephites who are destroyed on account of their own wickedness. Remember that it is the white Gentiles who will reject the Gospel and be destroyed by the Lamanites. Remember that in their Christian utopia there is no division among the people. Remember that one of the most important prophets is a Lamanite.

I am not saying that the LDS Church has a good record on racial issues or that its scriptures are not racist, but the Book of Mormon does offer a glimpse of the transcendence of racial divisions.

The Book of Mormon quotes Paul on unity in Christ, adding that there is no black or white in Christ. There is something going on there, something worthwhile.


I still struggle with this. For me, it doesn't help at all to point out that ancient whites in the Americas became wicked and were destroyed, because the underlying theme remains that it was the dark skinned who were wicked first and destroyed them. Same for the prophecy of future white gentiles rejecting the gospel and being destroyed. Again, it will be wicked dark skins who commit the atrocities of destruction on whites.

I guess I just can't get past the teaching that dark skins are wicked and when whites become like them they are destroyed. To me, that is a very racist teaching. And when I combine it with the teachings in 1 Nephi 13, that the dark skinned indigenous peoples of the Americas were driven, scattered and nearly destroyed because of God's wrath on them for their wickedness on the land of promise, while his spirit was with the European explorers and colonizers, there is little comfort in the teaching that descendants of those white gentiles will become wicked at some future point to face their own destruction at the hands of merciless Indian savages. I just don't see any of that as some kind of transcendence of racial division.

The message from the Book of Mormon is that America is a land of promise and its inhabitants are required to worship a particular God or they will face destruction. Applying that message to real history of the last 500+ years leads many LDS members to the conclusion that America's indigenous peoples have been deserving of the atrocities they have suffered. If such things were openly taught about Jews, that they were deserving of the Holocaust, all hell would break loose in the public media.

Abandoning one's culture and assimilating into someone else's and worshipping someone else's God just doesn't bring much comfort to me. Is that what is really required? Is that really a cure for racism?


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:12 am 
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One variant of Mormon apologetics claims that the skins cursed with blackness refer to loin cloths, indicating that God removed detergent from the presence of the Lamanites to show his displeasure. Therefore, the strongest claim against the Book of Mormon would be that of laundryism.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:41 am 
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tapirrider wrote:
I still struggle with this. For me, it doesn't help at all to point out that ancient whites in the Americas became wicked and were destroyed, because the underlying theme remains that it was the dark skinned who were wicked first and destroyed them. Same for the prophecy of future white gentiles rejecting the gospel and being destroyed. Again, it will be wicked dark skins who commit the atrocities of destruction on whites.


Except that the atrocities will be more like the Israelites visiting destruction on the Canaanites, and the Lamanites won't be the wicked ones, the gentiles will.

In my view the Book of Mormon undermines the premise that there is a connection between skin color and righteousness when it blows apart the racial divisions at the post-resurrection visit of Christ. Through that and the subsequent process of division, it is shown, in my view, that people separating themselves out of wickedness is the mechanism for division, not the divine imposition or removal of racial markers.

I understand that the text is messy, and I recognize that it is easy to read a simple racist formula in there. Nevertheless, I see the possibility of different readings that mitigate or even fatally undermine the usual racist reading of the Book of Mormon. For example, if one accepts the possibility of "others" who existed in the Americas before the Nephites arrived (and I understand that this, too, is problematic), then one can read the Nephite narrative of dark-skinned Lamanites as a flawed and bigoted criticism of them for mixing with local peoples.

The upshot is this: In my opinion, there is no single correct reading of a text. But, if one puts forward a different interpretation and expects others to be persuaded, one must back up the reading with evidence. I think the interpretation of the Book of Mormon as a two-dimensionally racist document is problematic and that the text is susceptible to different readings.

tapirrider wrote:
I guess I just can't get past the teaching that dark skins are wicked and when whites become like them they are destroyed. To me, that is a very racist teaching. And when I combine it with the teachings in 1 Nephi 13, that the dark skinned indigenous peoples of the Americas were driven, scattered and nearly destroyed because of God's wrath on them for their wickedness on the land of promise, while his spirit was with the European explorers and colonizers, there is little comfort in the teaching that descendants of those white gentiles will become wicked at some future point to face their own destruction at the hands of merciless Indian savages. I just don't see any of that as some kind of transcendence of racial division.


I sympathize with your perspective. What I am suggesting is that it is possible to see the Nephite narrative as flawed on account of the racism of the Nephites themselves. When you get into the later parts of the book, you see racial assumptions undermined in various ways. What does it mean that whiteness, like wealthiness, is no proof against destruction? Does it perhaps suggest that the things people desire carnally as blessings don't mean much in comparison with real righteousness?

tapirrider wrote:
The message from the Book of Mormon is that America is a land of promise and its inhabitants are required to worship a particular God or they will face destruction. Applying that message to real history of the last 500+ years leads many LDS members to the conclusion that America's indigenous peoples have been deserving of the atrocities they have suffered. If such things were openly taught about Jews, that they were deserving of the Holocaust, all hell would break loose in the public media.


And that threat of destruction looms over any people of any color. As is clear from the Book of Mormon itself. So, what does skin color really tell people about their rightness with Deity? Evidently nothing. White people are as susceptible of being found wicked and being destroyed as any other group of people. The Book of Mormon not only shows a civilization of white people being destroyed, but it prophecies that white gentiles will be destroyed.

tapirrider wrote:
Abandoning one's culture and assimilating into someone else's and worshipping someone else's God just doesn't bring much comfort to me. Is that what is really required? Is that really a cure for racism?


First of all, I don't want you to mistake me for someone who actually believes the Book of Mormon narrative is true. I don't find cultural assimilation to be desirable, especially forced cultural assimilation. That said, it is possible that the author of the Book of Mormon, and Mormon believers, truly believed that Native Americans were once Israelites, in which case the assimilation would be a return to their former culture. That in itself is terribly problematic, yes. But the alternative of seeing the Native Americans as subhuman is much, much worse. The Book of Mormon is racist, but I would say that it is optimistically racist, in that it sees the other as potentially equal, and even arguably proposes that the differences between self and other can be negligible when the thing that really matters is faith in Christ.

Do I think any of this works in today's global, multi-cultural environment? Not really. But I do not think the Book of Mormon is as irredeemably, repugnantly racist as something like a KKK rally or a White Nationalist website. It is a text that naïvely proposed that in Christ all people could be united regardless of race. The obvious problem for us is the insistence that Christ be the factor that unites us, and that unity is thus cultural homogeneity. I don't accept that.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:48 am 
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moksha wrote:
One variant of Mormon apologetics claims that the skins cursed with blackness refer to loin cloths, indicating that God removed detergent from the presence of the Lamanites to show his displeasure. Therefore, the strongest claim against the Book of Mormon would be that of laundryism.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:17 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Except that the atrocities will be more like the Israelites visiting destruction on the Canaanites, and the Lamanites won't be the wicked ones, the gentiles will.

That is horribly disturbing. The Biblical genocidal destruction of Canaanites never really even happened. It was a Hebrew myth, but that storyline was believed to be true by the first colonizers of the United States. It was applied to the American Indians in justifying the atrocities committed against them. There is no solace at all in a misguided view that Indians will be the righteous ones sometime down the road to repeat that same genocide on whites. Such a thing in my view is just plain sick. And it does not negate the underlying belief that Indians were wicked and deserving of the horrors that they have experienced.

Kishkumen wrote:
And that threat of destruction looms over any people of any color.

Racism can happen with nothing at all to do with skin color. The teaching that one group of people was superior over another because of God's favor and his wrath was on the alleged wicked ones is a racist approach to history. The writings found in 1 Nephi 13 of God's spirit with the Europeans and His wrath on Indians was no ancient prophecy from Nephi. It is nothing more than a reflection of the attitude in the early 19th century United States toward American Indians.

Kishkumen wrote:
First of all, I don't want you to mistake me for someone who actually believes the Book of Mormon narrative is true. I don't find cultural assimilation to be desirable, especially forced cultural assimilation. That said, it is possible that the author of the Book of Mormon, and Mormon believers, truly believed that Native Americans were once Israelites, in which case the assimilation would be a return to their former culture. That in itself is terribly problematic, yes. But the alternative of seeing the Native Americans as subhuman is much, much worse. The Book of Mormon is racist, but I would say that it is optimistically racist, in that it sees the other as potentially equal, and even arguably proposes that the differences between self and other can be negligible when the thing that really matters is faith in Christ.

Is a subhuman view really much worse? What redeeming quality is found by regarding someone as a potential equal only if they become the same? That approach is racist too. Accepting differences in others, not just skin color differences but accepting that others who worship different gods or no gods at all and whose history has nothing at all to do with anything from the Middle East and is outside of Christianity with no looming threats from a man-made genocidal God is the beginning steps to overcome racism. Optimistically racist? No, it is a 19th century work of fiction that should be renounced by the LDS church and relegated to museums as a relic of racist writings of the 1800s.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:10 pm 
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I register your sense of outrage and respect it. I even share it. That said, it doesn't seem we have much more to talk about. I am interested in understanding the Book of Mormon, not just in calling it bad for being racist. Yes, it is bad inasmuch as racism is bad. It was written in racist times by people who thought in racist terms. We can go from there and see if there is anything else to discuss, or we can simply say it is bad. The latter is fine, but I am also interested in the former. It does not seem that you are, and that's OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Is the Book of Mormon racist? Yes. Is it colonial? Yes. But is that all one can say of its significance as literature steeped in such a culture? No. The Book of Mormon endeavors to transcend racism, but only partially succeeds. Remember that it is the white Nephites who are destroyed on account of their own wickedness. Remember that it is the white Gentiles who will reject the Gospel and be destroyed by the Lamanites. Remember that in their Christian utopia there is no division among the people. Remember that one of the most important prophets is a Lamanite.

I am not saying that the LDS Church has a good record on racial issues or that its scriptures are not racist, but the Book of Mormon does offer a glimpse of the transcendence of racial divisions.

The Book of Mormon quotes Paul on unity in Christ, adding that there is no black or white in Christ. There is something going on there, something worthwhile.

Insightful and balanced. Good analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawling under or around Book of Mormon racism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:16 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I register your sense of outrage and respect it. I even share it. That said, it doesn't seem we have much more to talk about. I am interested in understanding the Book of Mormon, not just in calling it bad for being racist. Yes, it is bad inasmuch as racism is bad. It was written in racist times by people who thought in racist terms. We can go from there and see if there is anything else to discuss, or we can simply say it is bad. The latter is fine, but I am also interested in the former. It does not seem that you are, and that's OK.


I don't think you get where I'm coming from. Reducing my position to "just in calling it bad for being racist" doesn't even begin to approach what I have been saying. In fact, it seems to be an attempt to brush me off. I'm not as interested in trying to understanding the Book of Mormon because I have been there and done that for 49 years and got the t-shirt with masonic markings.

I am concerned about the influence it has on otherwise decent members of the LDS church. The canonized racism in the pages of the Book of Mormon cannot be crawled under or around by believing members of the church. It is a matter of doctrine to them. It was written in racist times by people who thought in racist terms but cannot simply be left in the past. As long as it remains the keystone of the LDS faith and remains a canonized book of scripture, the past racist times when it was fabricated are less important than the fact that those racist concepts are still being perpetuated in the 21st century. The apologist attempts to excuse racism in the Book of Mormon does bring outrage in me because there is no excuse for the Book of Mormon anymore.


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