Biggest whopper, Elder Holland or Grant Palmer?

[_Fence Sitter]

Granted.

But there is also an important difference between the two story-tellers.

One [claims to be] an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

FIFY

[_Philo Sofee]

I love how the rally big bad guys (Hells Angels) who come back into the fold, get really close to the Celestial by becoming Stake Presidents.

[_moksha]

The same "evidence" most of you employed to call out E. Holland for his story, i.e., an internal bs detector.

I think even "apologists" have an internal bs detector. Altogether, some bs detector signals are constant, some are selective and some are shorted and rarely get any signal.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Granted.

But there is also an important difference between the two story-tellers.

One [claims to be] an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

FIFY

SMH... I don't understand consig.. One post and you think he has already left LDS INC, another post like this and its like he still has his jesus jammies on.

[_toon]

Thank you for this. Will there be a podcast also?

There was a podcast after Holland admitted and there was conclusive evidence that his story was false. Before that happened, there was just skeptical disbelief.

With Palmer's claim, there has also been skepticism. But without either an admission or conclusive evidence, why would there be a podcast.

You question is disingenuous.

[_Mormon Think]

Got any evidence that anyone here has uncritically accepted Palmer's story?

I never uncritically believe anything. That being said, Grant called me on the day he reportedly met with the Seventy and Mission Prez. Grant sounded genuinely shocked at what he heard. It did not sound like he just made it up. He gave me all the details and answered all my questions in a rather long phone call. Eventually he decided to write it up for MormonThink to publish. I would be surprised (and very hurt) if he completely made it up, especially since I have known him for many years and communicated almost weekly via email and the occasional phone call.

I was the one who published this story on his Home Page on MormonThink at his request as well as everything else he did and wrote for the last 15 years (much of which was taken down recently as the publisher wouldn't publish his last book if I left them up as they were also in his newest book, although updated). To make it clear, Grant is not claiming these things about the Twelve, he is just relaying what the Seventy and Mission Prez believed and told him about the Twelve. I understand Grant protecting the identities of the people that told him this information in confidence as he has done with certain members of MormonThink.

Grant has told me many things in confidence well before it became common knowledge and they have proven to be 100% accurate. An example is the essays. On May 3, 2013, MormonThink announced on its website that we learned that the LDS Church will be releasing a series of 13 essays that will address troubling historical issues that are causing people to doubt and leave the Church. These essays started to be released in Nov 2013. I got that information from Grant some time before May 2013 that Grant obtained through inside sources.

At this point in time, I can't offer anything to validate or invalidate Grant's story but he certainly sounded sincere when he told me of these events on the day they reportedly happened.

For what it's worth,

Bill

[_consiglieri]

Thanks for that background information.

It sounds to me like Grant has a track-record of providing "inside" information that has panned out.

Which makes it more likely Grant is telling the truth about this, as well.

I am impressed by the lengthy phone call to you immediately after Grant found out and his ability to answer your many questions.

I may have to move this story off the shelf and into the more-likely-than-not category.

[_Mormon Think]

Thanks for that background information.

It sounds to me like Grant has a track-record of providing "inside" information that has panned out.

Which makes it more likely Grant is telling the truth about this, as well.

I am impressed by the lengthy phone call to you immediately after Grant found out and his ability to answer your many questions.

I may have to move this story off the shelf and into the more-likely-than-not category.

You're welcome. And congratulations on your 5000th post!

[_consiglieri]

Holy cow!

Thanks for pointing that out to me!

I would never have noticed I hit 5,000 posts otherwise!

[_Hagoth]

I don't know if Palmer's story is true, but the obvious difference between the two is that Elder Holland was actually caught red-handed telling a false story and had to print a retraction. It doesn't matter whether or not he knew that it was true. He added all of the stuff about how intricately involved the Holy Ghost was in each step of the unfolding of the yarn. So we know that at least ONE of the two stories is false; the one told by an apostle of Jesus Christ, the one that is filled with all kinds of (nonexistent) miracles about how the Holy Ghost specifically inspired specific people to do specific things to get a specific result.

But far more important than the bickering about which story is more false are the two main lessons Elder Holland's story teaches us about some very important things that are integral to Mormonism:

1) Mundane events can be exaggerated into amazing, miraculous, church-affirming stories in a very short amount of time and in just a few tellings. Homework assignment: consider how this information might apply to all of the foundational and faith-promoting miracle stories of our tradition?

2) Our Prophets, Seers and Revelators have absolutely no powers of discernment when it comes to discerning truth from fiction. None. And they will even add embellishments to a false story if it serves them.

Grant Palmer, who makes no claims of being an apostle and special witness of Jesus Christ, could not possibly tell a lie big enough to be as disappointing as Elder Holland's story.