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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
I see nowhere where Shulem assumes this however. No one has to have everything figured out in order to have some things figured out. You honestly don't grasp that simple point? We don't have to know everything about a subject in order to draw out the probabilities of whether it is even in the ball park or not. You certainly don't know everything there is about Mormonism yet that doesn't stop you from making all sorts of pronouncements of supposed knowledge about it. If you had to learn everything FIRST, you wouldn't be able to say anything for the next several decades. So this strawman you keep throwing at Shulem is ineffective and silly.
I believe that what the Egyptologists have discovered is not sufficient to undo the work of Joseph Smith.


Why do I care what you believe? You need to present evidence and discuss the significance of it, and things like that. Mere pronouncements mean nothing to me. Don't tell me Joseph Smith got it right, show me with the actual conforming evidence of the Egyptian which Joseph Smith most certainly DID claim to know and understand. He is on trial here, and you as his lawyer are failing and flailing.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:38 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
You give your ignorance away here. Shulem used to be THE PREMIERE ******DEFENDER****** of Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham. Back in the good ole days, he was taking on the Egyptologists themselves. I was as well. Your assumption is that we were never on the side of defending Joseph Smith and ultimately because of the evidence saw that it is futile to defend his wrong translations. We have already been on the side of Joseph Smith. Apparently you fail to know this. But you do now, so it's time you engage the evidence. No more excuses for you like this silliness we all are reading. Pony up, show us specifically HOW Joseph Smith got it right with the Book of Abraham papyri. We used to think he did, but we don't now.
I don’t care what he has done or is doing now. He is wrong about Joseph Smith.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:41 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
You give your ignorance away here. Shulem used to be THE PREMIERE ******DEFENDER****** of Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham. Back in the good ole days, he was taking on the Egyptologists themselves. I was as well. Your assumption is that we were never on the side of defending Joseph Smith and ultimately because of the evidence saw that it is futile to defend his wrong translations. We have already been on the side of Joseph Smith. Apparently you fail to know this. But you do now, so it's time you engage the evidence. No more excuses for you like this silliness we all are reading. Pony up, show us specifically HOW Joseph Smith got it right with the Book of Abraham papyri. We used to think he did, but we don't now.
I don’t care what he has done or is doing now. He is wrong about Joseph Smith.


But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future. You need to take better care of what you say then. He is not wrong about Joseph Smith's knowledge and how its false about the Egyptian. You have yet to engage him and show WHY Joseph Smith is right. What Egyptological aspect did Joseph get correct? You need to SHOW that. I am amazed you do not grasp this simpleton logic and necessity based on your claims. Don't you yet grasp that without evidence what you say is worthless? Are you honestly this thick?! Really, I am beginning to wonder if you ever graduated let alone listened from and in high school.
The church lied to you when it said all you have to do is bear pure testimony and things will go well. Pure testimony is pure bunk until it can be backed with actual evidence and analysis. How long are you going to remain asleep to this obvious aspect of the problem of Joseph Smith?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:50 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future.
I think that stupidity is coming from you, and I am not interested in your crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:51 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:

But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future. You need to take better care of what you say then. He is not wrong about Joseph Smith's knowledge and how its false about the Egyptian. You have yet to engage him and show WHY Joseph Smith is right. What Egyptological aspect did Joseph get correct? You need to SHOW that. I am amazed you do not grasp this simpleton logic and necessity based on your claims. Don't you yet grasp that without evidence what you say is worthless? Are you honestly this thick?! Really, I am beginning to wonder if you ever graduated let alone listened from and in high school.
The church lied to you when it said all you have to do is bear pure testimony and things will go well. Pure testimony is pure bunk until it can be backed with actual evidence and analysis. How long are you going to remain asleep to this obvious aspect of the problem of Joseph Smith?


He doesn't care, Philo. He worships Smith and Smith can't be wrong. Lying for and about Smith is a badge of honor, showing devotion and loyalty. He fears the truth and so refuses to think or inquire. We all know it and see it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:59 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future.
I think that stupidity is coming from you, and I am not interested in your crap.


You're afraid. Run away, scared little Z-boy. Stick your fingers in your ears and run, run, run. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:01 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
zerinus wrote:
I don’t care what he [Shulem] has done or is doing now. He is wrong about Joseph Smith.


But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. * * * I am amazed you do not grasp this simpleton logic and necessity based on your claims. Don't you yet grasp that without evidence what you say is worthless?

It is worth repeating--with drum roll, please: "without evidence what you say is worthless". That is the vast chasm at play here on MormonDiscussions.com in almost all substantive disagreement. Not surprisingly, the LDS defenders betray their claim that faith is all you need to find truth, each time they hanker for a coincidence like NHM to be 'evidence'. Their minds yearn for logic and corroborating evidence. But all in all, "without evidence what you say is worthless".

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"without evidence what you say is worthless"-Philo Sofee, 7/16/2017


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:03 am 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future.
I think that stupidity is coming from you, and I am not interested in your crap.


Well then what are you doing here for? Lol! You don't want to converse, you want to preach. You make claims you can't defend and you expect us to all swoon?! Lol! You don't even read what I write, yet judge it crap? Lol! You a funny child.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:05 am 
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The Mormon way is no way to have an honest logical discussion about things. When words don't mean what they really mean and feelings trump logic, there is no way to have a logic based discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:06 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:

But you FALSELY accused him and I ****DO***** care about you doing that. You stop that stupidity and things will go a bit better for you in the future. You need to take better care of what you say then. He is not wrong about Joseph Smith's knowledge and how its false about the Egyptian. You have yet to engage him and show WHY Joseph Smith is right. What Egyptological aspect did Joseph get correct? You need to SHOW that. I am amazed you do not grasp this simpleton logic and necessity based on your claims. Don't you yet grasp that without evidence what you say is worthless? Are you honestly this thick?! Really, I am beginning to wonder if you ever graduated let alone listened from and in high school.
The church lied to you when it said all you have to do is bear pure testimony and things will go well. Pure testimony is pure bunk until it can be backed with actual evidence and analysis. How long are you going to remain asleep to this obvious aspect of the problem of Joseph Smith?


He doesn't care, Philo. He worships Smith and Smith can't be wrong. Lying for and about Smith is a badge of honor, showing devotion and loyalty. He fears the truth and so refuses to think or inquire. We all know it and see it. :wink:


Yes indeed. The church has emasculated him and his brain. He has remained as a child and continues speaking as a child. He refuses to do what Paul said to do. But then it's only Paul, a mere midget compared to the almighty Joseph Smith. :wink: I shall call him child from now on until he repents and decides its worth growing up and maturing his thinking processes.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:12 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
zerinus wrote:
I don’t care what he [Shulem] has done or is doing now. He is wrong about Joseph Smith.


It is worth repeating--with drum roll, please: "without evidence what you say is worthless". That is the vast chasm at play here on MormonDiscussions in almost all substantive disagreement. Not surprisingly, the LDS defenders betray their claim that faith is all you need to find truth, each time they hanker for a coincidence like NHM to be 'evidence'. Their minds yearn for logic and corroborating evidence. But all in all, "without evidence what you say is worthless".


Nicely put. When the apologists think that there really is some objective evidence is in favour of the Book of Mormon, they make a big, big noise about it, like it was really a game changer. Films, websites, articles, the lot.

But once it is punctured (and so far it always seems to be) ... they suddenly don't need anything so vulgar as evidence any more. Their burning in the bosom is infinitely superior.

However, in that case why bother with any evidence, ever? And why come here to argue, when you just KNOW?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:14 am 
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Starbuck wrote:
The Mormon way is no way to have an honest logical discussion about things. When words don't mean what they really mean and feelings trump logic, there is no way to have a logic based discussion.


And amazingly enough, so very many of them appear to me to be unable, if not outright unwilling, to grasp this...

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:20 am 
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Nicely put. When the apologists think that there really is some objective evidence is in favour of the Book of Mormon, they make a big, big noise about it, like it was really a game changer. Films, websites, articles, the lot.

But once it is punctured (and so far it always seems to be) ... they suddenly don't need anything so vulgar as evidence any more. Their burning in the bosom is infinitely superior.

However, in that case why bother with any evidence, ever? And why come here to argue, when you just KNOW?


A very good point. If the Spirit is so sure a guide, why doesn't God simply send it all over the world already?! It literally makes no sense. The claims of the leaders make no sense. God apparently doesn't think it is all so important a thing to do as guide the world. He loved it so much he gave his only begotten son, and then went hiking through the universe or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:26 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Well then what are you doing here for? Lol! You don't want to converse, you want to preach. You make claims you can't defend and you expect us to all swoon?! Lol! You don't even read what I write, yet judge it crap? Lol! You a funny child.
Like I said, cut the crap, not interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:35 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Starbuck wrote:
The Mormon way is no way to have an honest logical discussion about things. When words don't mean what they really mean and feelings trump logic, there is no way to have a logic based discussion.


And amazingly enough, so very many of them appear to me to be unable, if not outright unwilling, to grasp this...

I think subconsciously some realize it but then they have to quickly take a different approach before it bubbles up to their conscious level of thought and causes cognitive distress. That's when the name-calling starts for those who can't discuss anything with confidence. I don't think it's a universal trait but it does seem to show up here a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:57 am 
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Well I read the document and I think it lays a solid foundation to show that Joseph literally thought the ink on the papyrus was from Abrahams own quill? and that it was around 4000 years old.

Apologetics appear to be putting words into the dear leaders mouth if they claim anything else.

I did notice a few grammatical issues and I had to use a dictionary more than once.

. He never once mythologized or spiritualized anything away from the Bible in his revised translation of it that can be find.
And I think there was an I are in there somwehere.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:14 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Well then what are you doing here for? Lol! You don't want to converse, you want to preach. You make claims you can't defend and you expect us to all swoon?! Lol! You don't even read what I write, yet judge it crap? Lol! You a funny child.
Like I said, cut the crap, not interested.


Child, I am trying to get you to cut the crap and contribute something meaningful. Apparently you were never taught how to do that since all you appear to have done is attend Sunday school instead of a real school. Shall we give you lessons to learn from, or would you rather continue playing in your sandbox? When you begin acting and discussing like an adult, I shall stop addressing you as child. It seems like a fair deal to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Starbuck
Quote:
I did notice a few grammatical issues and I had to use a dictionary more than once.


Ah...... using a dictionary is a GOOD thing. We need to enrich our language instead of agreeing with the dumbing down that has been occurring since FDR. One of the singular most important and fascinating references I have purchased is Peter E. Meltzer, "The Thinker's Thesaurus." Get it.....use it.....enjoy it! It is a pure delight! I bought the expanded 3rd edition and it never fails to entertain and teach.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Starbuck wrote:
Well I read the document and I think it lays a solid foundation to show that Joseph literally thought the ink on the papyrus was from Abrahams own quill? and that it was around 4000 years old.

Apologetics appear to be putting words into the dear leaders mouth if they claim anything else.

I did notice a few grammatical issues and I had to use a dictionary more than once.

. He never once mythologized or spiritualized anything away from the Bible in his revised translation of it that can be find.
And I think there was an I are in there somwehere.


THANK YOU! Got it corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Like I said, cut the crap, not interested.


Obviously, he is, because he keeps making these inane comments. His whole logic is "I know you are but what am I". Just childish games.

Shades, you need to open a new Forum Section called Outer d***a**, and banish all of these kinds of stupid comments to there. I really wanted to read about the Book of Abraham, but there was so much BS from color-boy that I gave up trying to search through pages and pages of stupidity. I mean, here are the first three pages of his comments and there is ZERO that is of any substance at all. Not one addresses the OP. This is simply trolling.

Quote:
My testimony is grounded in the Book of Mormon, not in "a cult led by a man". The Book of Mormon is the word of God. It is a book of scripture, revealed from heaven, no doubts about it.
Wrong! If that is what you want to believe, go ahead, I can’t stop you. But I can inform you that you are dead wrong!
I am in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, God’s only true Church on earth, restored in the last days for the gathering of his elect for the last time.
It is true, and the word of God, just as the Book of Mormon is. I am speaking of the English text. The same Spirit that bears witness to me that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the words of God, also bears witness to me that the Book of Abraham is the word of God. The egyptological issues surrounding it do not concern me.
Dumb comment.
Another Dumb comment.
No I didn’t.
Oh no, not you again! :lol:
Nitpicking, still dumb comment. In informal conversation “the” can be omitted, if the context implies it. In the revelation in which the name of the Church was revealed we find the following:
D&C 115:
3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
As you can see, the definitive article in the first instance is omitted. It is not sacrosanct.
Rubbish, nonsense. The KJV quotes comprise about 7% of the Book of Mormon. And they are not identical; there are variations. If the Book of Mormon was a fraud, why would Joseph Smith want to expose himself to that kind of criticism by merely copying lengthy passage from the KJV—when he could have just omitted them, and nobody would have noticed anything?
I think that I am smarter than them. LOL! I quoted you what God had said, not what man has said.
I had figured.
Oh yes you have. You have fallen for the lies of the devil against Mormonism.
You are talking rubbish, nonsense. The Book of Mormon is the word of God, just as the Book of Abraham is the word of God.
Then you need to listen to the following devotional address given by Elder Tad R. Callister at BYU some months ago called: “The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?”:
Since I and the rest of the Church, including General Authorities, believe that the D&C is the word of God—and you don’t—that issue will not arise.
See my previous post.
I am not in individual people's minds, that is true; but as a general observation, that is a true statement—otherwise they wouldn’t be Mormons.
You should know better than that. We determine the truth of revelation by the testimony of the Holy Ghost, not by some other means.
Already answered.
Religion is a matter of faith, not of "science". If you have invented a god for yourself called "scientific certainty," you are welcome to it; but it is a false god. It is nothing more than an idol. There is a real God, however, who can only be known by faith; and who can reveal "truths" that science cannot reveal.
If that is how you want to see it, you have that choice. There is nothing more that can be said. We part ways. But we will meet again someday, at a place called the "judgement bar," when you will know with "certainty" that is better than "scientific" that there was a real God whom you missed---with regrettable consequences.
Except that there are certain "facts" that cannot be known or discovered by "science," or for that matter by "Egyptology". They can only be known by faith, and by a revelation from God.
You and your "Egyptology" are not as omniscient as they thing they are. They may have discovered some truth, but not all truth. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing," is a well-known proverb. They have discovered some knowledge, and they think the know everything. I don't think that they do.
No you don't. The "Egyptology" that you rely on so much is not as foolproof as you think it is. There is a better way of discovering truth that never goes wrong. "Egyptology" doesn't even come close.
I trust that what Joseph Smith taught was true. If your "Egyptology" says that it isn't, then I mistrust your "Egyptology" rather than Joseph Smith. I don't believe that your "Egyptology" has advanced enough to be able to solve every mystery therein.
You are talking nonsense. You know a little bit, and you think you know everything. "Science" proves nothing of the kind. There are many truths that cannot be known by "science," but by the revelations of God.You can knock your head against that wall forever; but it won't alter that fact.
Amounts to the same thing. I know without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, and that it is true. The same applies to the Book of Abraham, no difference.
You are wasting time. Nothing more to add. Have a nice day.


Lather, Rinse, Repeat on every thread. It all needs to go to the d***a** Forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:52 pm 
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About eight years ago I developed software that allowed Byesian Belief Networks to be created and calculated. I fully understand how probabilities from prior and observable data can be computed. I have never really understood how soft observations ie human behavior, could be fully determined.

What approach are you going to use to address this issue?

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