"Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

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_Grudunza
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"Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

Post by _Grudunza »

Bill Reel's recent Mormon Discussion podcast is about the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Or rather, about why the lack of its historicity doesn't matter any more to the current crop of apologists and faith-promoters, and how that is even being alluded to by some apostles. (It appears that the Community of Christ was way ahead of the game on this!)

I like Bill a lot, and I do appreciate that he is trying to make space for those on the margins of belief. I was in a very similar place a couple years ago. But this whole episode feels like justifications after rationalizations for any means of staying connected with a premise that just fails on its own evidence, in numerous ways, and contradicts the expectations of the Book of Mormon's own premise and the history of its translation. I don't want to get into the whole of it, though... But one comment in particular by Sam Brown really made me shake and scratch my head. See what you think.

"The Book of Mormon quite self-consciously advocates a vision of scripture that is hybrid. And the hybrid scripture specifically requires a written text and a living prophet. And scripture arises from the conjunction of a written text and a living prophet, much as the traditional Mormon model of a human being is a spirit and a body representing the soul of a person. In the case of scripture according to the Book of Mormon, a text and a living prophet here constitute scripture. Now if we take that model of hybrid scripture seriously, then I think we're forced to expect that the Book of Mormon, particularly the Book of Mormon as it comes to be in the world will be both a 19th century and an antique document. So as I read the Book of Mormon, speaking solely academically, I think the Book of Mormon requires that it be both ancient and 19th century. So in this case, I think the academic reading of the Book of Mormon is quite compatible with a devotional reading, or a believer's reading of the Book of Mormon that says that anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon... The Book of Mormon, according to its own self-understanding expects anachronism... The Book of Mormon wants to be anachronistic. And when you find 19th century material in the Book of Mormon, you haven't caught the Book of Mormon in a mistake. You've finally begun to grapple, if you're thoughtful, with the reality that the Book of Mormon rejects strict linear temporality and rejects the notion that any given encounter with God has to be locked in the temporal space in which it first occurred."


So the modern Mormon apologists are having to redefine the understanding and expectations from the Book of Mormon itself. Okay, fine. New angles and approaches should always be welcome. But I maintain that they do so in this case at odds with the history. They need the translation to be very loose for this approach to work, when the 116 pages incident and direct witness testimony and other evidence describes it as being very tight. And it's amusing how for years the approach was to say that there really aren't anachronisms in the book, it's just that we haven't learned or discovered enough to verify some things, but now it's "Hey, really there should be anachronisms! See?? You just don't get it. You're just not thoughtful." Anything to keep the fire going.
:rolleyes:

The full podcast can be heard here, or through your usual podcast player: http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... storicity/
http://www.WeirdAlma.com
Weird Alma - Prophet of the New Disputation
_huckelberry
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Re: "Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

Post by _huckelberry »

The model of people as a combination of a spirit and a body is one of the basics I find problematic. I think it makes it hard to try and understand oneself. At least in my mind any investigation of what is happening in my thoughts collapses into incoherence with the binary model.

For the Book of Mormon I suspect similar problems. Why are they not working together? Which is which? I can imagine the Book of Mormon as a physical history to have been a mossy lump in the forest pregnant with imaginative possibilities. In the mind of Joseph it was a big canvas for storytelling.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dude. We've been saying for at least ten years now the Mormon church will eventually have to claim the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction. We also started the whole inoculation strategy on this board. Those MoFo's read the board. Believe you me.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_DrW
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Re: "Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

Post by _DrW »

It is always fascinating, and sometimes sad, to see this kind of absolute nonsense coming from the mind of an otherwise (assumably) sane individual.

How can anyone take Reel's silliness to represent any kind of value or insight? It is so bad, it's not even funny.

I know five year olds who have better reasoning skills than Reel demonstrates here - much better in fact.

Who reads, or benefits in any way, from such gobbledygook? Reel comes across as the apologists' village idiot.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 29, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Grudunza
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Re: "Anachronisms belong in the Book of Mormon."

Post by _Grudunza »

To be fair, Bill didn't say that quote (Sam Brown did), but yeah, the whole podcast is endorsing that approach.
http://www.WeirdAlma.com
Weird Alma - Prophet of the New Disputation
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