The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

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_huckelberry
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _huckelberry »

Chap wrote:
huckelberry wrote:I think this is why people honestly have experiences of spiritual confirmation with the Book of Mormon. It touches on mythic patterns that bring to mind important values for some people .It may in fact be revelation of the best good for some people. It may be true in some ways for them at that time.


True in some ways?

Well, it is interesting to see 'true' used in a way that evidently excludes any actual correspondence between the factual statements made in the Book of Mormon, and historical reality.

As some readers may have noticed, I don't think that dictionary definitions are a useful way of settling disagreements. But the idea of a book being said to be in any way 'true' when the majority of the factual statements made in it are false ... well, that seems just a leetle tiny bit outside the normal range of usage of the word 'true', does it not?


I did not think I had to repeat that I think historically the book is fiction. Perhaps I thought my nod to honorentheos suggested that. Do i have to also spell out that I think the book is mythically flawed as well? My subject was how different people have different spritual experiences but the experiences are actually important to them.
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adding later with a few more moments of time available

Chap, I was not trying to utilize some form of postmodern apologetic for the Book of Mormon. That sort of thing has happened so I suppose it is natural that you are suspicious though. I was thinking first of a much more traditional idea about the relationship of fictional stories and the truth. One might propose that there is truth in Hamlet independent of whether there was at some time a Danish prince who tried to resolve uncertainty about his stepfathers criminality by employing a fictional play. Or if one determines that in fact there was once such a troubled prince that piece of data would not improve or detract from the play or the plays truthfulness.
_zerinus
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _zerinus »

honorentheos wrote:Rereading that was kind of embarrasing. A lot of misplaced or missing words and loosely organized. But thanks, I'm glad it had some value.
I have enjoyed our conversation as well. Ultimately, if you are determined to find fault with the Book of Mormon that is easy. You will find plenty of sources on the Internet to help you along. But that is not the smartest thing to do. The smarter thing is to establish the real truth behind it, rather than just follow the crowd in finding fault with it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
_huckelberry
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _huckelberry »

Themis wrote:


People can honestly have spiritual confirmations of many things like Aliens. Doesn't mean the experience was from some divine being, and it certainly doesn't help in finding truth, or things that are true for everyone regardless of what they think or believe. That's what the LDS church and most members are saying when they say the Book of Mormon is true.


The experience is just too subjective to learn objective facts. It's fine for subjective truths.


Themis I think the idea of asking spiritual confirmation of something is about as reliable as asking a weegee board. I think it is a perversion of the value of spiritual experience. What I understand the experience to be is our awareness of a basic goodness. It is not possible for that not to be important to us but it does not give us any complete understanding of that goodness. We can only try to live in that direction and use our mind to try and understand better.

I think the experience can be a start towards better living but I do not think it is a reliable answer to question a person asks.
_I have a question
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _I have a question »

huckelberry wrote:Themis I think the idea of asking spiritual confirmation of something is about as reliable as asking a weegee board. I think it is a perversion of the value of spiritual experience. What I understand the experience to be is our awareness of a basic goodness. It is not possible for that not to be important to us but it does not give us any complete understanding of that goodness. We can only try to live in that direction and use our mind to try and understand better.

I think the experience can be a start towards better living but I do not think it is a reliable answer to question a person asks.


That's a nice thought, except there's numerous examples of spiritual experiences driving the opposite of basic goodness. Think about the Lafferty's, religious based terrorism, Waco, Branch Davidians, etc etc.'Spiritual experiences' seem to me to be confirmation bias, chemical imbalance (including mental illness) or emotional episodes. I see no objective evidence of them being a method of displaying a basic goodness. In fact I think it's demonstrably dangerous to give any credence to what people claim as spiritual divine guidance or revelation.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_thews
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _thews »

To the OP: Man-Made... the evidence is staggering. To ignore it would simply be acknowledging you are in fact, brainwashed.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_huckelberry
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _huckelberry »

Themis wrote:
I think this is why people honestly have experiences of spiritual confirmation with the Book of Mormon. It touches on mythic patterns that bring to mind important values for some people .It may in fact be revelation of the best good for some people. It may be true in some ways for them at that time.


People can honestly have spiritual confirmations of many things like Aliens. Doesn't mean the experience was from some divine being, and it certainly doesn't help in finding truth, or things that are true for everyone regardless of what they think or believe. That's what the LDS church and most members are saying when they say the Book of Mormon is true.

perhaps I should clarify that I was arguing against accepting spiritual witness as some sort of knowledge that the Book of Mormon is real history and that was divinely brought forth. I do not believe it is either of those. That is my understanding to my best ability to consider the evidence.
_Sanctorian
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Sanctorian »

Sanctorian wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:If I have torn you down, personally, I apologize. I don't think that you deserve it. At times if I am a bit frustrated with certain people on the board, some of that frustration may spread to those that really don't deserve it.


Where do you draw the distinction between those that deserve it and those that don't?

Honor, thank you VERY MUCH for baring your soul a bit and sharing your history. I wish that others would do so more often.


Interesting. When I shared my story you suggested it was fabricated. Other things you have suggested about me, mentally unstable, on or off medications, alcoholic, chronic weed user and the latest, that I'm more likely to be a liar because I'm atheist/agnostic.

Do you want more people to share their stories so you can trumpet how their stories are falsified? Is that what you're hoping?


Bump for MG
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Sanctorian wrote:
When I shared my story you suggested it was fabricated. Other things you have suggested about me, mentally unstable, on or off medications, alcoholic, chronic weed user and the latest, that I'm more likely to be a liar because I'm atheist/agnostic.


I think that it's gonna have to be 'cut and paste' time for you Sanctorian. Please use/show total contextual containment/verification.

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc.

But I also said, something to the effect, that I can't really quantify that. It's a suspicion that I have based on what to me is more or less common sense. I am hesitant about taking what agnostics/atheists have to say at face value in all instances unless I know them well.

So...in that sense, I suppose that would apply to you.

I didn't think this thread would get another bump up to the top. Looks like it might get some more mileage from you.

Regards,
MG
_Sanctorian
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _Sanctorian »

I'm actually more interested in the first questions where I said:

Where do you draw the distinction between those that deserve it and those that don't?
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_I have a question
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Re: The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

Post by _I have a question »

thews wrote:To the OP: Man-Made... the evidence is staggering. To ignore it would simply be acknowledging you are in fact, brainwashed.


Or intellectually dishonest.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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