Why did Joseph lie? (or if you prefer: use careful denials?)

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Why did Joseph lie?(or if you prefer: use careful denials?)

 
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_huckelberry
_Emeritus
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Re: Why did Joseph lie? (or if you prefer: use careful denia

Post by _huckelberry »

deacon blues wrote:Options 2 and 3 may seem a little weird or far-fetched, but a careful and complete reading of the scriptures does lend credence to a belief that God does at times lie and/or deceive. And one cannot read the Old Testament impartially and not find places where prophets sin-- sometimes big time.
????

1st Kings chapter 13 and 22 each contain weird stories that if read literally depict God and/or his prophets lying. In Abraham 3 it is God who tells Abraham to lie (or use a careful denial)to protect his life against Pharaoh. If you read the rest of the story (in Genesis), it seems likely that God/Abraham should have trusted Pharaoh.
In D&C 19 God says he uses hyperbole and/exaggeration to motivate people to repent. If David is the literal author of the early Psalms, the he is a prophet, and look what he did to Uriah. :rolleyes: I always wondered how God let David off so easy. I suspect it was politically motivated.
Don't misunderstand me. I love the Bible. I just believe that many people worship/defend the Bible at the expense of seeking truth.


Hi Deacon Blues, you presented a couple of interesting examples there. I am glad when an exchange presents something to make one think,It has been a bunch of years since I thought much of those examples in Kings so I went over them to give them some thought.

It is strking how loose a category prophets are in the old testament. There are all sorts of them running about saying things which are not always trustworthy. I think the Old Testament reflects from time to time about what is trustworthy or not. In chapter 13 the man of God leaves his own witness to listen to somebody else with faulty information. I think the story is primarily interested in the course of politlcal events but the warning not to listen to others is there. I think that is good advice.

I think the story of Ahabs fall, 22 is delightful storytelling.

Both stories seem to participate in the theme of God hardening the heart of Pharoah. God allows a spiritual influence agreeing with a persons own bad choice and desire. That should be a good reason to question ones own spiritual witness. Is it true or just your desires , pride and assumptions?

Both of these stories could reflect a little on why Joseph lied. Perhaps he was following a lead composed more of his desires than of truth. I am lead to suspect that more considering Josephs rewrite of the Abraham in Egypt story. In Genesis it is Abrahams questionable decision to lie. In Josephs rewright it is God proposing falsehood to further some purpose. Perhaps Joseph is building an image of Gods relationship to special people like himself where lying is ok.
_deacon blues
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Re: Why did Joseph lie? (or if you prefer: use careful denia

Post by _deacon blues »

huckelberry wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
It is strking how loose a category prophets are in the old testament. There are all sorts of them running about saying things which are not always trustworthy. I think the Old Testament reflects from time to time about what is trustworthy or not. In chapter 13 the man of God leaves his own witness to listen to somebody else with faulty information. I think the story is primarily interested in the course of politlcal events but the warning not to listen to others is there. I think that is good advice.

I think the story of Ahabs fall, 22 is delightful storytelling.

Both stories seem to participate in the theme of God hardening the heart of Pharoah. God allows a spiritual influence agreeing with a persons own bad choice and desire. That should be a good reason to question ones own spiritual witness. Is it true or just your desires , pride and assumptions?

Both of these stories could reflect a little on why Joseph lied. Perhaps he was following a lead composed more of his desires than of truth. I am lead to suspect that more considering Josephs rewrite of the Abraham in Egypt story. In Genesis it is Abrahams questionable decision to lie. In Josephs rewright it is God proposing falsehood to further some purpose. Perhaps Joseph is building an image of Gods relationship to special people like himself where lying is ok.


It IS striking how loose a category "Prophet" is in the Old and New Testament. I think Joseph combined his own interpretation of the Bible with 19th Century thinking to come up with a concept of "Prophet" as a political AND spiritual leader. Examples of this are Moses and Mohammed. When Joseph forcefully projected himself and a spiritual and political prophet, (and Priest and King) he definitely scared some people. It would have scared me, if I had lived then. Even now, while the L.D.S. church appears to try to distance themselves from this type of perspective, it is in the D&C and in Joseph's speeches and writings. I think many, maybe most, of my L.D.S. neighbors would take ANY decisive political action LDS leaders told them to, even at the expense of their own conscience; indeed, they are under oath to do so.
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