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 Post subject: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Assessing the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Introduction to the Historiography of their Acquisitions, Translations, and Interpretations


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Oh, groundbreaking stuff ...

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While there are many more small issues and sets of data that could be discussed regarding the history of the study of the Book of Abraham and the Joseph Smith Papyri, we have touched at least briefly on the major issues here. Due to the resurfacing of the papyri Joseph Smith once owned, the last few decades have been an intense period of research regarding these issues. Historical and Egyptological understandings have advanced, and some of the points of debate have clarified as a result.

The discussion has been moved forward recently by an important statement issued online by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, called “Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham.”95 This has allowed for a more clear understanding of the position of the Church regarding the relationship of the papyri fragments and the text, as has been noted above.

Perhaps the most important recent movement in Book of Abraham studies is the trend toward being more aware of and forthright about the assumptions that have formed the basis for academic discussions. While all have known that their point of view about the possibility of [Page 49]Joseph Smith’s inspiration impacts their research, being upfront about it allows for a more transparent and thus useful and intellectually honed conversation. Similarly, recognizing key assumptions made about comparing explanations of the facsimiles to Egyptological points of view or about the source of the Book of Abraham allows us to better research and understand the issues. Hopefully future scholarship will more explicitly incorporate transparency about assumptions into their studies. Furthermore, hopefully discussions about epistemology and personal revelation as a source of learning about Joseph Smith and his papyri will be part of the conversation, for even though different camps will have different points of view on this issue, clarity about how it plays into the conversation is extremely relevant and will further understanding.

It is also clear that more research needs to be done. This is especially true in regard to understanding the role of the Grammar of the Egyptian Alphabet and Language, nuances of Joseph Smith’s methods of inspiration and translation, and understanding Facsimile Three. Undoubtedly the next decade will see a continuation of research about the Joseph Smith Papyri and the Book of Abraham, hopefully revealing both new information and better processing the old.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:42 pm 
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Ya, Brian Hauglid, David Bokovoy and Brent Metcalfe are already having a field day on Facebook with this...


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Just look at the finely polished wood at the sides of his brightly lit paper. It supposed to make things look inspiring and divine. SMOKE AND MIRRORS, BABY.

I skimmed through the article but just couldn't get my self to breathe in the scent of that vomit Mr. Muhlestein has spewed from his warped mind. Indeed, he's nothing but a cult Mormon follower who is trying to save the Book of Abraham and its lying Facsimiles at any cost. Never mind truth. Never mind reality. Never mind logic. And most of all, never mind what Joseph Smith was actually testifying of and presenting to the world because the EGYPTIAN TRANSLATOR Joseph Smith has been thrown under the bus by the entire modern Mormon church, and that includes Mr. Muhlestein, a liar for the Lord.

Bottom line, you will see that Facsimile No. 3 is the one that will most stick in the craw as Mormons attempt to wiggle through the lies and continue to bear false witness to the world through their phony revelations and publications as demonstrated by the Times & Seasons and Pearl of Great Price. Facsimile No. 3 is the silver bullet and testimony nuke.

Let us continue to ram Facsimile No. 3 down their throats, morning, noon and night. Facsimile No. 3 is Mormon food that Mormons can't stand to eat and they get sick every time they try. It is the death blow to their prophets and a sure sign that their revelations and translations are completely false. Tie this with everything Joseph Smith said about the Book of Abraham project and there is nothing that Muhlestein can do to save it. DOA. Muhlestein is a Mormon clown -- a total buffoon.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:17 pm 
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Another note regarding Facsimile Three is in order


The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are total disorder. There is nothing to put in order, sir.

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It has received the least amount of scholarly study and attention


The reason being is because it's blatantly apparent that there is nothing scholarly or correct about the Explanations tendered by the pretended translator, Joseph Smith.

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and thus it has the least debate associated with it.


There really is nothing to debate, Mr Muhlestein. The Explanations are completely false, 100% wrong.

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As with the other two facsimiles, some have highlighted incongruences between Egyptological interpretations and Joseph Smith’s explanations as evidence for disbelief in Joseph Smith


Some? Who do you mean by "Some". You mean Egyptologists? It's the science of Egyptology that finds the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 to be wrong -- not antiMormons or critics of the church.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:48 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Ya, Brian Hauglid, David Bokovoy and Brent Metcalfe are already having a field day on Facebook with this...

Can you post some of their stuff so those of us who don't have Facebook can see it?

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:07 pm 
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New information and better processing, eh?

A new hieroglyphics panel may be discovered that has a couple of teenage Reformed Egyptian girls giggling, pointing and finally saying, "We can hear your book of heavy breathings clear around the corner. That must be some pretty long scroll you're toting around there Hôr."

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:17 pm 
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moksha wrote:
New information and better processing, eh?

A new hieroglyphics panel may be discovered that has a couple of teenage Reformed Egyptian girls giggling, pointing and finally saying, "We can hear your book of heavy breathings clear around the corner. That must be some pretty long scroll you're toting around there Hôr."


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:45 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Ya, Brian Hauglid, David Bokovoy and Brent Metcalfe are already having a field day on Facebook with this...

Can you post some of their stuff so those of us who don't have Facebook can see it?


Ditto, please?


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:51 pm 
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David Bokovoy: So many, many problems with this piece, beginning with this:

"All non-LDS Egyptologists (i.e., all Egyptologists who have chosen to believe that Joseph Smith was not prophetically blessed by God) will see things differently than all LDS Egyptologists (i.e., all Egyptologists who have chosen to believe that Joseph Smith was prophetically blessed by God)."

Methodologically speaking, when an LDS Egyptologist professes a belief that God prophetically blessed Joseph Smith, they're not doing so as an Egyptologist. They're acting as a theologian. One cannot use the tools of the historian's craft to argue that Joseph Smith was prophetically blessed by God. That is a matter of faith, not Egyptology.

=========================

Brian Hauglid: Thank you David. I know this was supposed to be an introductory piece, as it goes with most of his articles on this topic. But there's really nothing here to sink your teeth into. He never seems to deal with the documents beyond special theological pleadings.

==========================

Brent Metcalfe: Kerry Muhlestein exhibits an arresting lack of insight into the Eg. alphabet and Book of Abraham manuscripts. My forthcoming multipart article on a stemma codicum for the Eg. and Book of Abraham manuscripts addresses the salient issues elucidating the relationships among the manuscripts—relationships that appear to confound Kerry. For instance, this comment...

<<Furthermore, though somewhat contradictory to Hauglid’s claims, John Gee has demonstrated that key portions of the GAEL date to early 1836 at the earliest.>>

... tells me two things: 1) Muhlestein lacks the manuscript knowledge to successfully critique Gee, and 2) Gee lacks the manuscript knowledge to make a viable argument in the first place. As I discuss in my essay, any date other than 1835 for W. W. Phelps’s scribal contributions to the bound volume is extraordinarily problematic.

============================

Brian Hauglid: Brent, I think the early 1836 date may have something to do with Sexias's transliteration system being incorporated into the bound volume. Matthew Grey and I, however, have checked into this and we just cannot see it. In making this point in the article, without referring to a study, or at least saying why it is so, amounts to nothing more than special pleading. There's too much of this kind of arguing in the article, which makes its arguments much less compelling and even misleading.


=============================

Brent Metcalfe: Yes, that's precisely what Kerry is referring to, Brian. I don’t see it either. But even if it were there, I’d have to consider it coincidence because of where the volume resided at the time... more on that later.


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:33 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
David Bokovoy: So many, many problems with this piece, beginning with this:

"All non-LDS Egyptologists (i.e., all Egyptologists who have chosen to believe that Joseph Smith was not prophetically blessed by God) will see things differently than all LDS Egyptologists (i.e., all Egyptologists who have chosen to believe that Joseph Smith was prophetically blessed by God)."

Methodologically speaking, when an LDS Egyptologist professes a belief that God prophetically blessed Joseph Smith, they're not doing so as an Egyptologist. They're acting as a theologian. One cannot use the tools of the historian's craft to argue that Joseph Smith was prophetically blessed by God. That is a matter of faith, not Egyptology.

=========================

Brian Hauglid: Thank you David. I know this was supposed to be an introductory piece, as it goes with most of his articles on this topic. But there's really nothing here to sink your teeth into. He never seems to deal with the documents beyond special theological pleadings.

==========================

Brent Metcalfe: Kerry Muhlestein exhibits an arresting lack of insight into the Eg. alphabet and Book of Abraham manuscripts. My forthcoming multipart article on a stemma codicum for the Eg. and Book of Abraham manuscripts addresses the salient issues elucidating the relationships among the manuscripts—relationships that appear to confound Kerry. For instance, this comment...

<<Furthermore, though somewhat contradictory to Hauglid’s claims, John Gee has demonstrated that key portions of the GAEL date to early 1836 at the earliest.>>

... tells me two things: 1) Muhlestein lacks the manuscript knowledge to successfully critique Gee, and 2) Gee lacks the manuscript knowledge to make a viable argument in the first place. As I discuss in my essay, any date other than 1835 for W. W. Phelps’s scribal contributions to the bound volume is extraordinarily problematic.

============================

Brian Hauglid: Brent, I think the early 1836 date may have something to do with Sexias's transliteration system being incorporated into the bound volume. Matthew Grey and I, however, have checked into this and we just cannot see it. In making this point in the article, without referring to a study, or at least saying why it is so, amounts to nothing more than special pleading. There's too much of this kind of arguing in the article, which makes its arguments much less compelling and even misleading.


=============================

Brent Metcalfe: Yes, that's precisely what Kerry is referring to, Brian. I don’t see it either. But even if it were there, I’d have to consider it coincidence because of where the volume resided at the time... more on that later.

Thank you!!!

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"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:31 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Kerry Muhlestein' latest crap.


I would like to take this opportunity and apologize to every single crap on planet earth for Kevin Graham's opening post title.

Kerry Muhlstein is an ass. The church's essay on the Book of Abraham has already consigned his work to the ash heap of pseudoscience.

How many more times does Muhlestein have to get thrown under the bus by the church before he learns?

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:11 pm 
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It seems that the only argument these apologists have now is to chide people for not embracing weird "points of view" and how no one comprehends their "Paradigm shifting". They want people to basically leave the real world, enter their alternate reality where nothing makes sense and take up that "point of view" so you can "see" everything in a new light which then magically enables one to perfectly understand their gibberish. After all, they have studied these issues far more than Gentile Egyptologists and so their point of view has been vastly underrated. :rolleyes:

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Some have noted that many LDS Egyptologists put forth what appear to be convincing arguments but some readers later come to perceive that their credibility or authority is somewhat doubtful because non LDS Egyptologists who have written about the subject have disagreed with their point of view. It seems to have gone unnoticed that the vast majority of Egyptologists have said nothing at all about this matter. A very small minority has taken any kind of position regarding the Joseph Smith papyri controversy. Of those who have, it is certainly not their primary research concern, so they have typically put very little time into investigating these issues and the associated details. Thus it is important to note that LDS Egyptologists have spent more time studying the Egyptological issues associated with the Book of Abraham than any non-LDS Egyptologists, though this does not necessarily mean they are correct about everything they write. It is even more important to note that all scholars who say something about this topic are heavily influenced by their original point of view. Understanding the different points of view of these sources of authority is an important part of the epistemological process — the process of learning about the historiography of the study of the Book of Abraham. We can understand the history of the conversation best when we first understand the base assumptions made by all who have been involved in this dialogue.


What does "point of view" have to do with translating Egyptian correctly? Absolutely nothing. They are all jumping on this bandwagon for all of their arguments. Kevin nailed it. It is CRAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Do we know that Muhlestein wrote the Book of Abraham essay? Or, do we know the other contributing authors?

I hadn't heard that the authors of the essays had been identified.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:41 pm 
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God bless Brent Metcalfe, who has his calling and election made sure by virtue of the ecclesiastical abuse he endured. God bless David Bokovoy, Blair Hodges, Mike Reed, Kish and Brian Hauglid, whose work on how we can still believe in the key concepts of the gospel and church in spite of our prior institutional errors and assumption on things like the Book of Abraham, has greatly helped me.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:46 pm 
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moinmoin wrote:
Do we know that Muhlestein wrote the Book of Abraham essay? Or, do we know the other contributing authors?

I hadn't heard that the authors of the essays had been identified.

Thanks!


The Book of Abraham Essay destroyed much of Mulhestein's prior work and research (and I use the term "research" loosely) on the Book of Abraham.

But on and on he goes, undeterred. Much like the Energizer Bunny, if the Energizer Bunny were on both crack and hallucinogenics. I guess it's admirable in a tragic/pathetic kind of way.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Quote:
To illustrate, let us look at some possible scenarios for the facsimiles.


No! Stop right there, Muhlestein you Mormon cultist! The only illustration that deserves attention is a correct translation. If you can't translate Egyptian into English than you need to shut the hell up and sit down. Introducing crazy Jewish nonsense into the Egyptian language is insanity as are the Mormon Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 which were presented as literal translations of the ancient language but proven to be 100% false.

Sit down, Muhlestein, you fool. You are a liar and pervert Egyptology. You are a disgrace to the craft.

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:07 pm 
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None of this is to suggest that such parallels prove that Joseph Smith was inspired; they cannot do so


You're right. Your parallels and imagination prove nothing.

The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 have been scientifically proven to be 100% false. Joseph Smith is a proven liar. His translations and explanations have been scientifically proven wrong. There is no argument. There is no discussion. There is no debate.

Sit down. Your evil designs to deceive will not prevail. You are a Mormon wolf.

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And when the landing spot of the arrow is moved, RE-DRAW THE TARGET. (Polygamy-Porter)


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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.


Joseph Smith,

You are wrong, sir. You have no ability to translate Egyptian. Your presentation in the Times & Seasons is completely false and you are attempting to deceive the Mormon people and the world. The inspiration you tender as a prophet and translator is nothing but a sham. You don't know how to read Egyptian. The so-called inspiration of the Mormon Ghost doesn't either. You and your Ghost, are liars and you stand rebuked.

The world will not stand for Mormon lies. Stop this nonsense now! The translations you pretend to make from the Egyptian are totally false. You have perverted Egyptology, sir. Repent!

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:23 am 
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moinmoin wrote:
Do we know that Muhlestein wrote the Book of Abraham essay? Or, do we know the other contributing authors?

I hadn't heard that the authors of the essays had been identified.

Thanks!


Can you explain the relevance of the question?
(I'm asking to understand what you're seeking to conclude, rather than saying it isn't relevant)

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 Post subject: Re: Kerry Muhlestein's latest crap
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:33 am 
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Thousands of words with no meaning.

They still can't say "Joseph Translated this stuff" with any kind of reality to base it on.

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