"the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn children"

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_I have a question
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"the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn children"

Post by _I have a question »

Second, a fetus is not a human life. It's certainly the seed of human life, but throughout history we have always put unborn children in a separate and subordinate category from born children. In all our different modes of conceptualization, life begins at birth. The only place that is different is the abortion debate. You cannot find any examples in contemporary Western culture of anyone ever answering a question about their age or about how long they've been alive with a reference to any point prior to their birth. We conceptualize of human life beginning at birth. Even the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn children because there is no revelation indicating the spirit enters the body prior to birth.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/679 ... 1209654567

Is the above (MAD) poster correct?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_CameronMO
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _CameronMO »

I believe so. As bcspace would point out if he still participated, the following was in a church publication, so it's church doctrine.

Can we put the names of our miscarried or stillborn children on our family group records? Will these children belong to us in the hereafter?

Val D. Greenwood, manager of special services, Temple Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The first question is easily answered: Church policy does permit a family to record stillborn children on their family group record if they wish to do so. If the stillbirth takes place after the sealing of the parents, those children can be identified on the record as being born in the covenant (BIC). Miscarriages, however, are not normally recorded on family group records.

A miscarriage is delivery of a dead fetus, before it is viable—that is, before it could have lived on its own outside the mother’s womb. A stillbirth is delivery of the dead fetus that has developed to the point where it would normally have been viable, but for some reason is born dead. The line between a miscarriage and a stillbirth is not clear cut, and sometimes there is a question as to whether the fetus was viable. In this case, the decision to record or not to record the name on the family records is up to the family. The family may give the stillborn child a name for recording purposes, if they desire, and funeral services may even be held. But such children are not reported as births or deaths on Church records.

It should be noted, however, that no temple ordinances are performed in behalf of a stillborn child. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, quoting President Brigham Young, wrote that “‘they are all right,’ … and nothing in the way of sealings or ordinances need be done for them.”
(Bruce R. McConkie, comp., Doctrines of Salvation, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1955, 2:281.)

The question of whether stillborn children will be resurrected and belong to their parents in the hereafter is really the crux of the matter. This question is, as yet, impossible to answer with certainty. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that “there is no information given by revelation in regard to the status of stillborn children. However, I will express my personal opinion that we should have hope that these little ones will receive a resurrection and then belong to us.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:280.) He said nothing about miscarried children.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/i-ha ... n?lang=eng

All of God's children are soooooo important to Him, and families are sooooo important in the Great Plan of Salvation, that 186 consecutive years of prophets have yielded a shoulder shrug with regards to what happens in the next life.

But at least we have malls, farms, commercial property, housing developments, and 2% of Florida.
Trimble, you ignorant sack of rhinoceros puss. The only thing more obvious than your lack of education is the foul stench that surrounds you.
_MsJack
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _MsJack »

there is no revelation indicating the spirit enters the body prior to birth.

So the part in the Bible where in utero John the Baptist recognizes in utero Jesus and leaps for joy within his mom was just, what... their empty bodies flailing around for the heck of it? Maybe God was controlling them like marionettes since their spirits hadn't entered their bodies yet?

This policy is probably born of pragmatism rather than theology. There would have been a lot more miscarriages, stillborn infants, and neonatal deaths in the 1800s, before modern-day obstetrics made birth relatively safe. Going back and sealing every baby that a family had lost would have been really cumbersome.

It makes less sense in an age where stillbirths are rare, but it is what it is.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _Fence Sitter »

MsJack wrote:
It makes less sense in an age where stillbirths are rare, but it is what it is.


It also makes less sense when one considers the church's stance on abortion. If the spirit has not entered the body until birth, why are they against abortion?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _CameronMO »

Joseph Smith, Jr., would have been the perfect prophet to reveal this doctrine, too, since he had at least one child stillborn. A couple other children only lived a few hours, I believe. How powerful would that have been if he had answered this question for us? Maybe Joseph Smith, Jr. didn't ask. Maybe God didn't want to tell him.

Oh well.
Trimble, you ignorant sack of rhinoceros puss. The only thing more obvious than your lack of education is the foul stench that surrounds you.
_The Dude
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _The Dude »

MsJack wrote:
there is no revelation indicating the spirit enters the body prior to birth.

So the part in the Bible where in utero John the Baptist recognizes in utero Jesus and leaps for joy within his mom was just, what... their empty bodies flailing around for the heck of it? Maybe God was controlling them like marionettes since their spirits hadn't entered their bodies yet?


Hmmm, an account in 3 Nephi Ch 1 has Jesus Christ speaking to the Nephite prophet saying "on the morrow I come into the world." His spirit can't exactly be wasting time gestating in Mary's womb if He's busy doing the work and announcing his birth in the New World.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_MsJack
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _MsJack »

The Dude wrote:Hmmm, an account in 3 Nephi Ch 1 has Jesus Christ speaking to the Nephite prophet saying "on the morrow I come into the world." His spirit can't exactly be wasting time gestating in Mary's womb if He's busy doing the work and announcing his birth in the New World.

Interesting catch. Seems like a bit of a contradiction between the texts.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Doctor Steuss
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Re: "the Church does not allow sealings for stillborn childr

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

MsJack wrote:
The Dude wrote:Hmmm, an account in 3 Nephi Ch 1 has Jesus Christ speaking to the Nephite prophet saying "on the morrow I come into the world." His spirit can't exactly be wasting time gestating in Mary's womb if He's busy doing the work and announcing his birth in the New World.

Interesting catch. Seems like a bit of a contradiction between the texts.

What's the ANE equivalent of Taco Bell? That's been known to make a baby, or two, leap in the womb.

Might've just been a bad falafel.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
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