It will all get sorted out in the next life

[_fetchface]

This sort of excuse is what happens when the group's theology contradicts itself, as any group's will if it becomes complicated enough. None of this is unique to Mormonism. This is the excuse that the brain automatically generates in the face of theological inconsistencies.

[_fetchface]

Admittedly, though, the vast majority of highly religious people never murder in God's name. And completely non-religious people (stastically minute, as with Mormons or other Christian groups) sometimes commit serial or mass murder or terrible things. Although the Laffertys, et. al. believed that God told them to, I wonder if they would have done it anyway without their religious background. They may have just been nuts and happened to have a sort of LDS background. No way to know . . .

I don't think it can be laid at the feet of Mormonism since they are extreme outliers, and statistically almost no Mormons ever do things like that. As with the non-Mormon population in general.

Nephi. Extreme outlier? Nuts?

And that is the big problem with moinmoin's assertion that these are just extreme outliers. The fact is that we have examples in scripture that are held up as examples of virtue of people being commanded to do something that is very similar to what the Laffertys did. In fact, if I recall correctly, Dan told Krakauer that he had no idea why God commanded him to kill Brenda and child but he knew he needed to obey God, because that's just what you do. It's nearly identical to the willingness that Abraham had to kill his own child, only the ending is different. Then there is that whole Canaanite genocide thing, don't get me started on that.

The fact is that God-sanctioned murder is in the theology. It was done in the past and there is no logical reason that it could not be commanded in the future. It is part of the God of Abraham, including the Mormon version.

In the words of Thomas Paine, "Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice."

[_Rosebud]

Mostly, I'm just sad the the believing family members I love rely on sorting things out in the next life. They have little incentive to try to repair relationships now. I would prefer working on problems in this life because people and happiness are important to me. I wish they would listen and even that they'd be more concerned about their own mortality so that we could make now everything it has the potential to be. Instead, "now" seems relatively meaningless to them because somehow "later" will solve the problems.

This is a loss for my family.

I also notice that confidence in personal revelation seems to intensify the problem. If a family member is more comfortable believing in a certain outcome than listening to another family member's perspective, that family member will sometimes receive a revelation in support of his or her own perspective. Then listening really stops. This is unfortunate because listening and learning instead of 'knowing' leads to growth and the strengthening of relationships. An eternal focus and the knowledge that listening doesn't really need to happen (or can only happen patronizingly) because one already 'knows' due to personal revelation gets in the way of family healing, productive growth and better family relationships.

Having family members who are very focused on the meaning of eternity and who plan to sort life's problems out there requires accepting loss of relationship potential. It's sad and just plain too bad.

[_sock puppet]

I also notice that confidence in personal revelation seems to intensify the problem. If a family member is more comfortable believing in a certain outcome than listening to another family member's perspective, that family member will sometimes receive a revelation in support of his or her own perspective. Then listening really stops. This is unfortunate because listening and learning instead of 'knowing' leads to growth and the strengthening of relationships. An eternal focus and the knowledge that listening doesn't really need to happen (or can only happen patronizingly) because one already 'knows' due to personal revelation gets in the way of family healing, productive growth and better family relationships.

Having family members who are very focused on the meaning of eternity and who plan to sort life's problems out there requires accepting loss of relationship potential. It's sad and just plain too bad.

Well put, rosebud.

"Revelation" is an indulgence of the proclaimer's ego, a delusion that undercuts the need for and inclination towards respect and tolerance of others.

[_Amore]

Hi Moinmoin,
I commend you just for having the guts to hang around here, considering you seem quite Mormon.

The "16 items (13 Articles + 3 TR questions)" are the bare minimum, the required belief.

Required... we have to believe those - we are forced to believe, if we want to be treated well in the church.
Even if they were GOoD beliefs, is that really Christ's way - to force? I've heard it's the adversary's way.

There are 15 TR (club membership card) questions, one being a full tithe-payer (10% of "income" - pretty expensive dues!).
One of them I cannot in good conscious answer in the "required" way.
Several years ago, I had a disagreement with the way the church leaders were handling sacred funds, and recently that conversation came back to bite me since she is now the bishop's wife. The bishop refused to let me participate in ANYTHING - as if I'm ex-communicated, simply because I couldn't say I believed everything the leaders say or do were perfect. He denied that he worshiped them, yet he also denied that they can every make mistakes.

Church leaders are responsible for a lot of suffering because of
1) Mind-control and many cognitive distortions that lead to mental illness (UT leads nation in anti-depressants).
2) Financial corruption: hiding sacred funds, but admitting to not sharing them with the poor, which is against the law of tithing. Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need.
They twisted doctrine to say "income" when it really reads, "increase."
IE: 2 men earn same income.
1 man lives with parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
2nd man is sole provider of family of 9, after paying bills, nothing's left.
Church corruptly demands the same amount from both men - which instead of helping poor, increases the suffering of the poor.

13 articles of faith many are required to memorize: (vain repititions?)

1.We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Why no mention of Heavenly Mother? Is motherhood spiritually and physically so insignificant?
No, Joseph had his vision based on the chauvinism prevelant during that time.
Spiritual experiences are subjective - which is why some see Buddha, others Hindu Gods, or Jesus, or aliens.
And why worship Jesus, when he warned against it?
Isn't God spirit, and to be worshiped in spirit (according to scripture).

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

No, men are not punished FOR their sins, but by them.
And Adam is simply a symbol for all men (according to temple endowment & common sense anthropology).

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I don't believe in human sacrifice and scapegoating and I believe that Jesus would be pissed if he knew how people have twisted his words to suggest he wanted such sick ideas.
God created us perfectly imperfect - and saw it was good... it's a bit heretical to suggest God was wrong and we have to have a scapegoat to pay for what God created.
Perfection is subjective and pretty much impossible objectively.
It would be GOoD if we accepted that nobody's perfect.

4.We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The first and most important principle and commandment is to love God and others as well as ourselves.
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
There is not one single human being who hasn't been born of water (amniotic fluid of mothers).
Being born of the spirit is a personal, life-time quest, not simple procedure and paper document.

5.We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We're all called of God, but few are chosen because most care too much what others think, especially lds church leaders.

6.We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

As long as they don't abuse their power, but unfortuantly, the church has set things up so that anybody who questions the leaders are put down, ostricized like a typical cult.

7.We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

But not so much doing.
So much potential going to waste because of the mind-control the church has placed on members.

8.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Socrates and Aristotle also have said some words of God.
Anything GOoD is of God.
But the Book of Mormon and Bible both have some pretty sick ideas in there too - like racial prejudice and incest.
Take the best, leave the rest (paraphrasing Joseph Smith).

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

What God reveals is very subjective and personal.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Look up: "Heaven's Reward Fallacy" - after which the lds church is named.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Except, in practice, church leaders have such strong mind-control as to persuade sales men to not only not get paid for gathering members, but to pay their own way and spend 2 years, gathering more tithe-payers.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

As long as laws are just.

13.We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

This is my favorite.
It would be nice to just leave it at this one.

[_I have a question]

Is there a writing or talk where the LDS prophet said that the "13+3" are all that are necessary and everything else optional?

This is my own explanation.

So, the doctrines of man mingled with scripture.
I seem to recall being advised to watch out for such things.