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 Post subject: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:18 pm 
Dragon
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I just finished reading Brian Hales 2015 Article on John C. Bennett and was amazed at what a terrible job Hales did with his research. He constantly complains about people not being familiar with the original documents, but the more I read what Hales writes, the more this can be applied to Brian Hales himself.

Does he even know what an original document is? Apparently not. I’ll give you a good example. Hales always wants to paint Joseph Smith in the best light, and (of course, since he is a Mormon Apologist) vilify anyone that might be able to show that Smith was not what he claimed to be, a bona fide prophet of God. In this instance he picks John C. Bennett, hoping to destroy what little credibility that Bennett has as a source for reliable information about Smith. Not that Bennet doesn’t have problems—he does, but Hales wants to make sure that no one will trust just about anything that Bennett ever said about Smith. He also wants to make Joseph Smith into something he was not, a pure prophet that never committed adultery or seduced women and set the example for all the shenanigans that Bennett, William Smith, and others engaged in, in 1842 that Smith then covered up until he was forced to admit it. And that brings me to my example. Hales writes,

Quote:
On May 8, 1844, Frances Higbee sued Joseph Smith in “plea of cause” claiming five thousand dollars damage. Joseph was taken into custody and told the court: “I want to testify to this court of what occurred a long time before John C. Bennet left his city.”46 The Prophet then described how Higbee had seduced a woman prior to the summer of 1842 when Bennett fled Nauvoo. Next, Joseph lamented, “The only sin I ever committed was in exercising sympathy and covering up their [the Higbees’, Fosters’, Laws’ and Bennett’s] iniquities, on their solemn promise to reform, and of this I am ashamed, and will never do so again.”47

Hales footnote on his source for this:

47 Manuscript History of the Church, May 8, 1844, in Richard E. Turley Jr., ed., Selected Collections from the Archives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, [December] 2002), Vol. 1, DVD #1 (hereafter cited as Selected Collections); see also History of the Church, 6:360. Ehat and Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, 144 note 5, summarize: “Bennett’s immoralities had come to the attention of the Prophet [by early 1841], but the latter, acting on a bleak hope of possible reformation of Bennett, deferred publicly exposing his counselor in the First Presidency.” Found here, https://mormonhistoryassociation.org/wp ... pr2015.pdf


Image

^^ Manuscript History, Vol. F-1, pg. 15, May 8th 1844, compiled in the 1850's.

Thing is, Smith only covered up what Bennett did to cover his own ass. How do I know this? Because there is an original source that they used when they compiled the Manuscript History of the Church, the actual minutes from the trial of Smith on May 8th, 1844 which are found in the Church History Library. Those actual minutes read quite differently from what was supposedly copied into the Manuscript History. What Joseph actually said was,

Quote:
“I never said any thing about Law, etc. etc. but what was strictly true. I have been placed in — the only sin I ever committed was in covering up their iniquities, etc. that I am ashamed of & will never do it again—“


Image

^^Actual 1844 Court Minutes (Court Journal, MS 16800 CHL)

Notice what they had to add to the testimony:

    Joseph exercising sympathy

    Joseph getting a solemn promise from them to reform

We see that Joseph never testified that he had sympathy for anyone, and that he never tried to get a promise from them to reform.

Joseph only admits that he covered up their “iniquities” and that now (since he was caught) felt bad and wouldn’t do it again.

The reason that I checked this, is that I know that George A. Smith (who was in charge of writing the Manuscript History) was dishonest as hell. He would doctor diary entries, delete things he didn’t like and add all kinds of bogus statements like with this one above. Hales complains over and over again that no one but him really understands Joseph Smith’s polygamy becuause he is the one that has personally viewed EVERY DOCUMENT related to it. Seriously, he actually makes this claim. From the Jacket Cover of Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Volume 1:

Quote:
Drawing on every known historical account, whether by supporters or opponents, Volumes 1 and 2 take a fresh look at the chronology and development of Mormon polygamy…

From the Introduction:

Quote:
At one point it became apparent that, if we continued searching, it might be possible to acquire copies or transcripts of essentially all of the known documents dealing with Joseph Smith’s polygamy…


But the problem is, can anyone take Hales seriously as a researcher when he makes gaffes like the one I detailed above? It’s not like it wasn’t easy to check on. But what is the significance of that statement by Smith above? (The doctored one). Hales makes that clear in his Bennett Essay,

Quote:
Bennett’s biographer asks: “One wonders why Smith acted against Bennett in mid-June and not earlier. Perhaps Smith expected or at least hoped that Bennett would leave Nauvoo quietly.”82 Another possibility mentioned above is that Joseph was too sympathetic. That is, he still held out hope that Bennett would repent and become obedient. Admittedly, this view is based on accounts that are almost exclusively from Joseph Smith and his supporters, whose biases are clearly shown. However, these and other sources could support a repeating dynamic of Bennett’s transgressions, pleas for forgiveness, and the extension of mercy with the Prophet offering Bennett yet another chance to comply. This pattern would be consistent with Joseph’s 1844 regrets about “exercising sympathy and covering up their [the Higbees’, Fosters’, Laws’, and Bennett’s] iniquities, on their solemn promise to reform.”83

82 Andrew Smith, The Saintly Scoundrel, 91.

83 Manuscript History of the Church, May 8, 1844, in Selected Collections, Vol. 1, DVD #1; see also History of the Church, 6:360


But the only regrets that Joseph had in 1844 was that he got caught covering up what Bennett and others did, most likely because they got their ideas from Smith.

Smith covered up George Adams adultery. He covered up his Brother Williams adultery. Harrison Sager’s adultery. I could go on and on. For example, when Sagers was brought to trial, Joseph pronounced him innocent of any sexual wrongdoing, when clearly, he was committing adultery.

The case of Harrison Sagers is interesting. Sagers was first charged on November 25, 1843. The High Council minutes read,

Quote:
Joseph Smith [preferred a charge] against [William Henry] Harrison Sagars. Charge[:] Nauvoo City[,] November 21st 1843. Brother Marks[.]

Dear Sir, I hereby prefer the following charges against Elder Harrison Sagars, namely: 1st. For trying to seduce a young girl, living at his house[,] by the name of Phebe Madison. 2nd. For using my name in a blasphemous manner, by saying that I tolerated such things in which thing he is guilty of lying &c &c. Joseph Smith.

The defendant plead not guilty. One [high councilman each] were appointed to speak on [either] side, viz. (7) [Thomas] Grover and (8) [Aaron] Johnson[.] The charge was not sustained, but it appeared that he had taught false doctrine which was corrected by President Joseph Smith, and the defendant was continued in the church.

[The] Council adj[ourne]d [un]till Saturday the 9th day of Dec[ember] next at 2 o’clock P.M. Hosea Stout[,] Clerk. (Dinger, John S., The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes, Signature Books, Kindle Edition, 12620-12629).


Here we see Sagers being charged with “seducing” a young girl, and claiming that Joseph Smith approved of it. Smith claims that he didn’t but that Sagers was only teaching “false doctrine” and he corrected him. He was allowed to stay in the church. Then on April 13, 1844 his first wife, Lucinda Sagers preferred a charge of adultery (spiritual wifeism) and leaving her. The minutes of the High Council read:

Quote:
Lucinda Sagars [preferred a charge] against [William Henry] Harrison Sagars. Charge[:]

To the Presidency and the Twelve. Inasmuch as you have declared officially that you will deal with all persons who teach or have taught the abominable doctrine of Spiritual wive[s], this is to notify you that Harrison Sagars is guilty of that said sin, which thing can be proven by credible witnesses, and if he is not chastized for it by the church the laws of the land will be enforced against him. H[arrison] Sagars left his family in December last[,] since which time he has not provided for them in any way whatever. The cause of the innocent demand action immediately and you are the ones to take the matter in hand. Lucinda Sagars.

Brother Harrison Sagars, Dear sir[:] As this complaint has been handed over to the High Council by the First Presidency to act upon, you are requested to appear before [the] Council on Saturday the 13th inst[ant] at my house at 2 o’clock P.M. to answer the within ^above^ charges. Nauvoo City[,] April 10th 1844.

William Marks President of said Council. [The] Defendant plead not guilty. Two were appointed to speak on [each] side to wit[:] (5) D[avid] Fulmer & (7) J[ames] G. Divine on the part of the plaintiff and (6) G[eorge] W. Harris and (8) A[aron] Johnson on the part of the defendant.

[It was] decided that ^as^ the first part of the charge had been brought before the Council before (on the 25th of Nov[ember] 1843) and he [being] tried on it; that the Council had no right to deal with him on that item. And that the second part was not sustained and therefore that he should remain in the Church.

Adjourned till the 27th inst[ant] at one o’clock P.M. Hosea Stout[,] Clerk. (Dinger, John S., The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes, Signature Books, Kindle Edition, 13157-13174).

John Dinger writes,

Quote:
Notice that the action against Sagers is driven by his wife, while the high council remains surprisingly lackadaisical in its response to alleged adultery. It appears that they knew Sagers had been given permission to take his sister-in-law as a second wife. If so, considering that the revelation required a man receive his first wife’s permission, the high council was complicit in the transgression (D&C 132:61; but cf. vv. 64-65).

A document in the LDS Church History Library and Archives titled “Trial of Harrison Sagar[s] defendant and his wife Lucinda Sagars” states that Ja[me]s Hadlock — says that he heard the defendant teach the doctrine of spiritual wives, and that he said he believed it to be the order of God[.] It was before he had his trial before this council, that [the] def[endan]t said his whole salvation Water Dog? rested on having 2 certain Girls to wit[,] [seventeen-year-old] Amanda Higbee and [twenty-five-year-old] Phebe Madison[,] and that was the way [he and his first wife] came to part[.] … They seperated last fall … P. Wells testifies [he heard James] Hadlock [speak about the] … spiritual wife doctrine … last fall [but] … thought it was all a joke. Mrs Hadlock says def[endan]t taught[the] spiritual wife doctrine … He frequently comes to see his child [and says] … that he must get an old woman to get young women for him … [The] def[endan]t and wife parted by agreement on the 8th of Dec[ember] … His wife said [the] def[endan]t and his mother all was whores … [It was] decided that as the first part of the charge had been brought up before the Council before (on the 25 Nov[ember] 1843) and he [was] tried on it[,] that the Council had no right to deal with him on that item, and that the second part was not sustained and therefore that he should remain in the Church (Nauvoo Stake High Council Court Papers, Selected Collections, 1:19). (Dinger, John S., The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes, Signature Books, Kindle Edition, 13912-13929).


Smith did not find Sagers guilty of adultery in either case. He only claimed that Sagers had taught “false doctrine” in what he said about Smith. Yet, Smith finds no fault in what he did except for this. When his wife prefers a charge, they also wave it off. This was exactly Smith’s M.O with spiritual wifeism. Sagers could do what Smith did, but he couldn’t teach that Joseph tolerated it (actually authorized it) in public. It was “false doctrine” because they were denying that it was being taught and only Smith could “ok” the phony handshake marriages [Spiritual Wifeism] that would allow them to have sex with as many women as Smith would “authorize”. This way, Smith could (in his mind at least) give adultery the trappings of legitimacy.

Is John C. Bennett “reliable?” It depends. Is Brian Hales? I don’t think so.

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Last edited by grindael on Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:50 pm 
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Hales is a hack. No two ways about it. His job is to give some answer, any answer that will satisfy the TBM mind and keep the revenue flowing. He and the other apologists wilfully mislead or mislead through ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:38 pm 
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Grindael,

Thanks for your research.

Brian Hales just lost all credibility and has shown us how intellectually dishonest he is. I'm disappointed he would feel the need to lie. He certainly would be fired if he were in academia.

How unfortunate and embarrassing for Hales.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Grindael,

Thanks for your research.

Brian Hales just lost all credibility and has shown us how intellectually dishonest he is. I'm disappointed he would feel the need to lie. He certainly would be fired if he were in academia.

How unfortunate and embarrassing for Hales.


I'm not saying he made this mistake on purpose (the minutes), I really don't know. But he claims to be familiar with all of these documents. He, in fact, is not shy about claiming that. Here is Hales chastizing Jeremy Runnells in two years ago:

Brian Hales wrote:
Of course Runnells is entitled to his own views, but when individuals attempt to expound and defend a specific historical interpretation before the public, it seems it would be wise to familiarize themselves with the latest research on the topic. Otherwise, they may perpetuate incomplete or deceptive arguments. Such persons should probably expect that their historical reconstruction will be critiqued by scholars who have also studied the same subject. It appears that Runnells’ accounts and criticisms of Joseph Smith’s polygamy reflect important weaknesses. But even more unfortunate is the apparent fact that Runnells is himself unaware of those weaknesses.


For him to have made the gaffe that I document above is just, to me... extremely ironic.

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"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Thing is, I've read the entire article and I find over a dozen problems with Hales statements and claims in it. I wish I had more time, but I might add some more here if I do.

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"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:01 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Grindael,

Thanks for your research.

Brian Hales just lost all credibility and has shown us how intellectually dishonest he is. I'm disappointed he would feel the need to lie. He certainly would be fired if he were in academia.

How unfortunate and embarrassing for Hales.


I'm not saying he made this mistake on purpose (the minutes), I really don't know. But he claims to be familiar with all of these documents. He, in fact, is not shy about claiming that. Here is Hales chastizing Jeremy Runnells in two years ago:

Brian Hales wrote:
Of course Runnells is entitled to his own views, but when individuals attempt to expound and defend a specific historical interpretation before the public, it seems it would be wise to familiarize themselves with the latest research on the topic. Otherwise, they may perpetuate incomplete or deceptive arguments. Such persons should probably expect that their historical reconstruction will be critiqued by scholars who have also studied the same subject. It appears that Runnells’ accounts and criticisms of Joseph Smith’s polygamy reflect important weaknesses. But even more unfortunate is the apparent fact that Runnells is himself unaware of those weaknesses.


For him to have made the gaffe that I document above is just, to me... extremely ironic.

grindael, do you think that Hales (in the quote above) is making a fair point, regardless of his own possible failings?

What I mean is that he seems to be suggesting that public statements of "specific historical interpretation[s]" is the exclusive province of the scholar. Surely that is not a reasonable position to take?

But if it is, then I think that Hales has to either give church leaders a pass, or apply the same criterion to them.

AFAIK, Runnells never claimed to be a scholar, and Hales is just one of many who criticise Runnells' work for something that it is not, and was never intended to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:12 am 
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Fabulous research Grindael! Always fun to read as usual. Your skills are very much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:06 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Fabulous research Grindael! Always fun to read as usual. Your skills are very much appreciated.

Hi Kerry,

Kish and I debated whether or not Nibley was a liar or just basically wrong...a fair debate in my view. The context was Nibley teaching Jesus secretly taught 1st century GA temple ceremonies in the Temple.

Question...as a former mopologist, was it ever a lie? Where is that line to you? I know when I was first struggling with my LDS faith, and knew in my heart it was wrong...I lied, I obviously did not do so in print, but I knew better.

Was Nibley a liar, is Hales a liar?

Too quote my favorite philosopher... " A lie is a lie even ifk it helpks ya " (Popeye the Sailor man)

Thanks
MG

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:09 am 
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If I remember correctly, Brian hired Don Bradley to do research for him in the church archives. It's possible the error didn't come from Brian directly. It could be a researcher trusting another source rather than confirming the original.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:07 am 
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Phaedrus Utah wrote:
If I remember correctly, Brian hired Don Bradley to do research for him in the church archives. It's possible the error didn't come from Brian directly. It could be a researcher trusting another source rather than confirming the original.

Phaedrus



Doubt it. This article was written by Hales in 2015. Don only helped with the Polygamy Books published in 2013. Regardless, he is the author, the gaffe is his.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Here we go again. In the recent issue of BYU Studies Quarterly, (Vol. 55, No. 2, pp. 8-73) another Mormon Apologist, Joseph I. Bently has written an article called "Road to Martydom, Joseph Smith's Last Legal Cases.

On page 29, he uses the same doctored quote from the Manuscript History as you can see circled below.

Image

He doesn't even footnote the quote! Gives no source for it whatsoever! And this isn't the only quote where he does this.

I found this article so apologetic towards Joseph Smith that it was hard to take any of it seriously. For example, on page 28 (above) Bently brings up the Orsimus Bostwick trial, but never mentions what it is really about. He claims that Bostwick was slandering Hyrum Smith, but what Bostwick actually did was accuse Smith of practicing polygamy which Hyrum Smith DENIED. Here is what is written in the History of the Church, something that Bently never mentions,

Quote:
In the afternoon, held court at the Mansion. City of Nauvoo versus Orsimus F. Botswick, on complaint of Hyrum Smith for slanderous language concerning him and certain females of Nauvoo. Bostwick [sic] was fined $50 and costs. Francis M. Higbee, his attorney, gave notice he should appeal to the municipal court, and then to the circuit court I [Joseph] told Higbee what I thought of him for trying to carry such a suit to Carthage —it was to stir up the mob and bring them upon us. (LDS History of the Church 6:225)


Joseph said this every time they wanted a change of venue to Carthage, because Joseph had control of the courts in Nauvoo. He accused just about everyone of wanting to bring the mobs down on him. It was Smith's favorite thing to say whenever he was challenged on Habeas Corpus. Gary James Bergera writes,

Quote:
Before the end of the month, on February 26, 1844, Higbee again crossed paths with Smith. By now a practicing attorney, as was his brother Chauncey, Francis represented Orsimus F. Bostwick, whom Hyrum Smith had charged with slandering him in connection with “certain females of Nauvoo.” The mayor’s court found Bostwick guilty, and Francis informed the tribunal that he would appeal the decision to the circuit court, which he felt would be less biased, knowing the influence Joseph Smith wielded over the city’s legal system. Smith countered: “I told Higbee what I thought of him for trying to carry such a suit to Carthage [the county seat]—it was to stir up the mob and bring them upon us. (Bergera, op. cited above)


Bergera’s note reads,

Quote:
Smith, History of the Church, 6:225. Bostwick’s allegations, although not specified in the official history, had to do with Hyrum’s and others’ polygamy. Bostwick allegedly bragged that he could “take a half bushel of meal, obtain his vile purpose, and get what accommodation he wanted with almost any woman in the city” ( in “Virtue Will Triumph,” Nauvoo Neighbor, Mar. 20, 1844, 2) (ibid.)


There is no credible evidence that Bostwick did anything other than accuse Hyrum Smith of practicing Joseph’s spiritual wife doctrine. As for trading sexual favors for food, William Smith made this proposal to some in 1842, but it was covered up by his brothers. A little more than a week later, Joseph Smith claimed that,

Quote:
Those who complain of our rights and charters are wicked and corrupt, and the devil is in them.

The reason I called up this subject is, we have a gang of simple fellows here who do not know where their elbows or heads are. If you preach virtue to them, they will oppose that; or if you preach a Methodist God to them, they will oppose that; and the same if you preach anything else; and if there is any case tried by the authorities of Nauvoo, they want it appealed to Carthage to the circuit court. Mr. Orsimus F. Bostwick's case had to go to Carthage. Our lawyers will appeal anything to the circuit court.

[p.238] I want the people to speak out and say whether such men should be tolerated and supported in our midst; and I want to know if the citizens will sustain me when my hands are raised to heaven for and in behalf of the people.

From this time I design to bring such characters who act against the interests of the city before a committee of the whole; and I will have the voice of the people, which is republican, and is likely to be the voice of God; and as long as I have a tongue to speak, I will expose the iniquity of the lawyers and wicked men.
I fear not their boiling over nor the boiling over of hell, their thunders, nor the lightning of their forked tongues.

If these things cannot be put a stop to, I will give such men into the hands of the Missouri mob. The hands of the officers of the city falter and are palsied by their conduct.
There is another person I will speak about. He is a Mormon—a certain man who lived here before we came here; the two first letters of his name are Hiram Kimball. When a man is baptized and becomes a member of the Church, I have a right to talk about him, and reprove him in public or private, whenever it is necessary, or he deserves it.

When the city passed an ordinance to collect wharfage from steamboats, he goes and tells the captains of the steamboats that he owned the landing, and that they need not pay wharfage.

I despise the man who will betray you with a kiss; and I am determined to use up these men, if they will not stop their operations. If this is not true, let him come forward and throw off the imputation.

When they appeal to Carthage, I will appeal to this people, which is the highest court. I despise the lawyers who haggle on lawsuits, and I would rather die a thousand deaths than appeal to Carthage,

Kimball and Morrison say they own the wharves; but the fact is, the city owns them, sixty-four feet from high water mark. From the printing office to the north limits of the city is public ground, as Water street runs along the beach, and the beach belongs to the city and not to individuals.

Another thing: I want to speak about the lawyers of this city. I have good feelings towards them; nevertheless I will reprove the lawyers and doctors anyhow. Jesus did, and every prophet has; and if I am a prophet, I shall do it: at any rate, I shall do it, for I profess to be a prophet.

The maritime laws of the United States have ceded up the right to regulate all tolls, wharfage, &c., to the respective corporations who have jurisdiction, and not to individuals.
Our lawyers have read so little that they are ignorant of this: they [p.239] have never stuck their roses into a book on maritime law in their lives, and, as Pope says:—
Shallow draughts intoxicate the brain;

Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring.

Our city lawyers are fools to undertake to practice law when they know nothing about it.

I want from this time forth every fool to stay at home and let the steamboats and captains alone. No vessel could land anywhere, if subject to individual laws.

The corporation owns the streets of the city, and has as much right to tax the boats to make wharves as to tax citizens to make roads. Let every man in this city stay at home, and let the boat-captains, peace-officers and everybody alone.

How are we to keep peace in the city, defend ourselves against mobs, and keep innocent blood from being shed? By striking a blow at everything that rises up in disorder.
I will wage an eternal warfare with those that oppose me while I am laboring in behalf of the city. I will disgrace every man by publishing him on the house top, who will not be still and mind his own business. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, 237-238)


To “use up” means to kill someone. He was here publicly threatening to murder people in this speech. Joseph was also serious about trying to “disgrace” anyone who opposed him, as they tried to do with Bostwick and later with other polygamy dissenters. Since Joseph had every reason to lie (since he was practicing polygamy in secret and denying it in public) it throws doubt on any affidavits that were produced by Smith and those who supported him.

Bently writes that Joseph destroyed the Expositor Press because he was afraid that the Mormons (under his control) would rise up and do it themselves, so Joseph was just protecting everyone! He keeps claiming that it contained slander, yet there is nothing slanderous at all in the Expositor. He also claims that William Law, etc., etc., wanted to stir up the mobs and bring them down on Nauvoo to destroy the city, but that was where Law and all the other dissenters lived, had property and family. How stupid would they be to want to invite that? He has absolutely no evidence that the Laws were ever a part of any conspiracy to murder Smith, yet that is what he continues to tout here.

The whole article is simply a whitewash of Joseph Smith's arrogant and unlawful behavior and a vilification of William Law and the other dissenters. Not that some didn't have their problems, they did. But this is beyond the pale.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:46 pm 
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All we have on Bostwick is written in the Nauvoo Neighbor by Emma Smith (Page 2, under "Virtue will Triumph'). Notice there is nothing there about what Bostwick said in relation to Hyrum Smith...

http://boap.org/LDS/Nauvoo-Neighbor/1844/3-20-1844.pdf

Here is the actual transcript that they DARED not publish:

Quote:
John Scott sworn saith one day last week in co[mpany] with Defendant. (Bostwick overwritten) Defendant said he was at the prophets last week & that the prophet asked him if he thought he had any spiritual wives? Defendant told no! Did not think he had any, but I know by God that your Brother Hyrum has. witness then turned to him not knowing his name. - & said do you believe that Hyrum has got any of these spiritual wives? Defendant said yes, by God I believe he had, and can sleep with three or four every night. - witness insisted to know who they were as he could not fellowship such work? Said Defendant they are all over the city by God. - Witness said he did not believe it. Defendant said he could take half a bushel of meal, and get what accommodation he wanted with almost any woman in the city. I know of one, a widow woman who had got her living that way for one of two years and had had no other way of getting her living. that there were a number of English women in the city beyond the temple who got their living in that way, and women of good standing in the Church too.


Image

A bit of exaggeration, but not really slander against Hyrum Smith since he had three spiritual wives. (That we know of) John Scott was one of Joseph's bodyguards. He was also the one who testified against William and Jane Law at their bogus excommunication trial. Which I produce below,

Quote:
[April 18, 1844:] Twelve — High Council, Presidents 70's. April 18th 1844 Father Cutler of said Wm Law & wife were at the temple yesterday and scorned and there was more than $200,000 their due [?] which they agreed to [turn ?] [on ?] the temple and tithings on his hill lot if the chu[r]ch would sell them.
Object of the meeting to take in consideration the two laws and foster ... = "Kimball said men on the Hill say Foster has spoke of Joseph as murderer, Bogus maker, counterfeiter, adu[l]terer and [publicized ?]
H. Kimball — moved R. D. Foster be cut off from the church [2nd ?] by Wm Clayton and [J. ?] P. Green.--
Cahoon — Foster had stated on the hill he had been called to women when/where the father was Joseph.
Woodruff — Foster [continually ?] [made ?] his [?] to [?] out against Joseph in the [?]
Pa — Saints not to purchase land of Joseph.
Vote [?] and unanimously 32 present, — Geo[rge] A. Smith moved Wilson Law be cut off --
[Jno Scott] = Law yesterday [many?]Gods. more wifes—full Mormons — spoke against Joseph = William Laws, rights, — went to Wm wife to attempt to seduce her. Joseph wanted her to come into the order. [Law] not privilege to [be] seld [sealed] unless he obed [obeyed] & marry more [wives?] Privilege sealed to him — watch his opportunity Wm out in bedroom attempt to take [her] abed. — repent & kill him spare his life she told her husband — get time told William. — Joseph swore &c.—W m told Joseph Wm wife some [lied ?] when. Joseph said you did Joseph acknowledged & seal[e]d William & wife Was not a more gallant scoundrel ever hung between the heavens and the earth
Vote carried unanimously, — Wilson Law, Clayton moved Wm Law be cut off 2nd J. P. Green, Wm Clayton, - spoke
C. C. Rich. said [?] Wm Law made a statement at wedding last winter Joseph had revelations for the [?]
Snow testified about Laws statement at City Council
Clayton moved [?} Law be cut off & [Jane ?]


See a pattern here? I believe that this scenario presented by John Scott is speaking of Joseph’s attempt to seduce Jane Law, and that he was rebuffed and Jane told William who confronted Joseph about it. But this is through the lens of Joseph Smith himself, because Scott was Joseph's lackey and would do or say whatever he was told to.

As for promising food, here is the testimony from 1842 about William Smith,

Quote:
William Smith (crossed out) has also been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlawful connexion but I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teaching of Joseph on the stand. He answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on the stand to keep down prejudice and keep peace at home
First W. Smith [not crossed out] insisted very much that I should not marry and proposed to supply me with food &c if I should remain unmarried and grant his requests Chaney Higbee also made propositions to keep me with food if I would submit to his designs... (Testimony of Catherine Fuller ^Warren^ before the High Council of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the City of Nauvoo May 25th 1842).


Brother William was doing exactly what Orsimus Bostwick claimed Hyrum was doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:42 am 
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grindael wrote:
Thing is, I've read the entire article and I find over a dozen problems with Hales statements and claims in it. I wish I had more time, but I might add some more here if I do.

I find your research outstanding and always well worth reading! Thank you for educating us....

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:25 am 
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grindael wrote:
All we have on Bostwick is written in the Nauvoo Neighbor by Emma Smith (Page 2, under "Virtue will Triumph'). Notice there is nothing there about what Bostwick said in relation to Hyrum Smith...

http://boap.org/LDS/Nauvoo-Neighbor/1844/3-20-1844.pdf

Here is the actual transcript that they DARED not publish:

Quote:
John Scott sworn saith one day last week in co[mpany] with Defendant. (Bostwick overwritten) Defendant said he was at the prophets last week & that the prophet asked him if he thought he had any spiritual wives? Defendant told no! Did not think he had any, but I know by God that your Brother Hyrum has. witness then turned to him not knowing his name. - & said do you believe that Hyrum has got any of these spiritual wives? Defendant said yes, by God I believe he had, and can sleep with three or four every night. - witness insisted to know who they were as he could not fellowship such work? Said Defendant they are all over the city by God. - Witness said he did not believe it. Defendant said he could take half a bushel of meal, and get what accommodation he wanted with almost any woman in the city. I know of one, a widow woman who had got her living that way for one of two years and had had no other way of getting her living. that there were a number of English women in the city beyond the temple who got their living in that way, and women of good standing in the Church too.


Image

A bit of exaggeration, but not really slander against Hyrum Smith since he had three spiritual wives. (That we know of) John Scott was one of Joseph's bodyguards. He was also the one who testified against William and Jane Law at their bogus excommunication trial. Which I produce below,

Quote:
[April 18, 1844:] Twelve — High Council, Presidents 70's. April 18th 1844 Father Cutler of said Wm Law & wife were at the temple yesterday and scorned and there was more than $200,000 their due [?] which they agreed to [turn ?] [on ?] the temple and tithings on his hill lot if the chu[r]ch would sell them.
Object of the meeting to take in consideration the two laws and foster ... = "Kimball said men on the Hill say Foster has spoke of Joseph as murderer, Bogus maker, counterfeiter, adu[l]terer and [publicized ?]
H. Kimball — moved R. D. Foster be cut off from the church [2nd ?] by Wm Clayton and [J. ?] P. Green.--
Cahoon — Foster had stated on the hill he had been called to women when/where the father was Joseph.
Woodruff — Foster [continually ?] [made ?] his [?] to [?] out against Joseph in the [?]
Pa — Saints not to purchase land of Joseph.
Vote [?] and unanimously 32 present, — Geo[rge] A. Smith moved Wilson Law be cut off --
[Jno Scott] = Law yesterday [many?]Gods. more wifes—full Mormons — spoke against Joseph = William Laws, rights, — went to Wm wife to attempt to seduce her. Joseph wanted her to come into the order. [Law] not privilege to [be] seld [sealed] unless he obed [obeyed] & marry more [wives?] Privilege sealed to him — watch his opportunity Wm out in bedroom attempt to take [her] abed. — repent & kill him spare his life she told her husband — get time told William. — Joseph swore &c.—W m told Joseph Wm wife some [lied ?] when. Joseph said you did Joseph acknowledged & seal[e]d William & wife Was not a more gallant scoundrel ever hung between the heavens and the earth
Vote carried unanimously, — Wilson Law, Clayton moved Wm Law be cut off 2nd J. P. Green, Wm Clayton, - spoke
C. C. Rich. said [?] Wm Law made a statement at wedding last winter Joseph had revelations for the [?]
Snow testified about Laws statement at City Council
Clayton moved [?} Law be cut off & [Jane ?]


See a pattern here? I believe that this scenario presented by John Scott is speaking of Joseph’s attempt to seduce Jane Law, and that he was rebuffed and Jane told William who confronted Joseph about it. But this is through the lens of Joseph Smith himself, because Scott was Joseph's lackey and would do or say whatever he was told to.

As for promising food, here is the testimony from 1842 about William Smith,

Quote:
William Smith (crossed out) has also been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlawful connexion but I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teaching of Joseph on the stand. He answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on the stand to keep down prejudice and keep peace at home
First W. Smith [not crossed out] insisted very much that I should not marry and proposed to supply me with food &c if I should remain unmarried and grant his requests Chaney Higbee also made propositions to keep me with food if I would submit to his designs... (Testimony of Catherine Fuller ^Warren^ before the High Council of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the City of Nauvoo May 25th 1842).


Brother William was doing exactly what Orsimus Bostwick claimed Hyrum was doing.

"women in the city beyond the temple". In the tranquil paradise of 1840s Nauvoo? Didn't hear about those women in sunday school, primary, seminary, BYU church history classes, etc. Maybe true information that was not useful to Packer, but for me as a late teen, in choosing to take life paths based on the LDS truth claims, would have been very pertinent along with legions of other facts I've only learned since finishing a mission and leaving behind that dastardly organization.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:11 pm 
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Watching Kerry's fawning over grindael makes my stomach turn....

I used to respect Kerry for his "obsessive" research ability, and grindael is like the "opposite" of what Kerry used to be, obsessive researcher, but an utter liar in how he presents that research, only cherry picking and misrepresenting it.
So, now we have two versions of grindael, given that Kerry is just like him, and now ideologically so.

This is what happens when wisdom isn't used when ever learning, because you never come to a knowledge of the actual truth of things.

BTW, those who remember know I debunked one of grindael's lying articles before, and his attempts to correct me were a joke, nothing but diversionary tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:37 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Watching Kerry's fawning over grindael makes my stomach turn....

I used to respect Kerry for his "obsessive" research ability, and grindael is like the "opposite" of what Kerry used to be, obsessive researcher, but an utter liar in how he presents that research, only cherry picking and misrepresenting it.
So, now we have two versions of grindael, given that Kerry is just like him, and now ideologically so.

This is what happens when wisdom isn't used when ever learning, because you never come to a knowledge of the actual truth of things.

BTW, those who remember know I debunked one of grindael's lying articles before, and his attempts to correct me were a joke, nothing but diversionary tactics.

You cannot be serious, are you referring to the time you misread the documents in grindael's research, used a date that was associated with the following story, NOT the one you were referencing, and you consequently got your rotund behind handed to you?!!
ldsfaqs wrote:
Clearly the "prized white stallion" statement is a relaying of information from some other source apparently gotten by the Millennial Star in 1851, likely those who worked at the Star were aware of when and how Joseph got rid of his prized white stallion.
But, let's not actual facts get in the way of grindael's bigoted cherry picking and assumptions from missing facts.

hagoth7 wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
...all this crying about her being 6 years old at the time...
....Millennial Star, February 15, 1851
http://www.blacklds.org/quotes...
But, let's not actual facts get in the way...

Well done ldsfaqs! Nice find. :smile:

Quote:
No.

Look at ldsfaqs' source, the date he included goes with the FOLLOWING story, not the horse story.
Quote:
(THE FOLLOWING IS NOT DOCUMENTED) The horse was Joseph’s prized white stallion, and was worth about $500; a huge sum at the time. With the money from the sale, Anthony was able to purchase his child out of slavery.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Millennial Star, February 15, 1851

Elder Orson Hyde:

We feel it to be our duty to ....
http://www.blacklds.org/quotes

Also, note that the stallion part is preceded by the words 'THE FOLLOWING IS NOT DOCUMENTED,' which is grindael's point.

Also, grindael's reference documents her date of birth - 1836.

Grindael also documents the court case date - 1842, when Mary was 6.

That's the problem with ldsfaqs' 'facts,' they very seldom are.

You are far better off relying on grindael, he is the historian, his research is always meticulous and well-supported.
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=944084#p944084


Your memory fails you, Faqsless.


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:17 pm 
Dragon
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ldsfudged wrote:
Watching Kerry's fawning over grindael makes my stomach turn....

I used to respect Kerry for his "obsessive" research ability, and grindael is like the "opposite" of what Kerry used to be, obsessive researcher, but an utter liar in how he presents that research, only cherry picking and misrepresenting it.
So, now we have two versions of grindael, given that Kerry is just like him, and now ideologically so.

This is what happens when wisdom isn't used when ever learning, because you never come to a knowledge of the actual truth of things.

BTW, those who remember know I debunked one of grindael's lying articles before, and his attempts to correct me were a joke, nothing but diversionary tactics.


You never debunked anyone in your life, fudged. You are simply a moronic sycophant, who cozies up to anyone who you think agrees with your own stupid speculations.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Still up on Hales website... I guess he doesn't care that he is misleading people with this inaccurate quote:

Image

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/john-c- ... al-wifery/

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"The Sots combine with pious care a monkey to enshrine." ~ Mormonism Unvailed, 1834.
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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 am 
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Bump. The quote is still up at Hales website.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:55 am 
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grindael wrote:
Joseph said this every time they wanted a change of venue to Carthage, because Joseph had control of the courts in Nauvoo. He accused just about everyone of wanting to bring the mobs down on him. It was Smith's favorite thing to say whenever he was challenged on Habeas Corpus. Gary James Bergera writes,


It's pretty clear it wasn't polygamy that led to Joseph's death but rather his use of the political and legal systems in Nauvoo as tools for his own power and enrichment. If you read the anti-Mormon stuff being published, yes, they talk about polygamy, but they are much more upset that Joseph seems to have set himself up as an untouchable tyrant in Nauvoo. As long as he had control of the local courts and the city council, no one could possibly have any legal recourse against him. The quotes wherein Joseph equates exercising one's Constitutional right to appeal a legal decision with bringing mobs in to destroy Nauvoo is really telling. I'll have to add that to my archives because it shows clearly what was going on: Joseph was terrified of any legal issues getting out of the courts he controlled. Threatening murder over someone appealing a court decision is madness, but it fits right in with what was going on.

I haven't had a lot of interaction with Hales. I met him briefly at Sunstone 5 years ago, and I once told him I thought he presented polygamy from an apologetic perspective better than anyone I knew. I think he was kind of offended, as he considers himself to just be publishing the facts objectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hales: Untrustworthy On Sources
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am 
Dragon
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He is now working on a project that compares Joseph Smith with other authors, claiming that Joseph had a 3rd grade education and wrote a complex book of with a word count well above what anyone else has ever done IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD and therefore.... all of Smith's talent/intelligence came after the year 1829 and so you know where it's going...

It's just a crazy apologetic gimmick, like "Hebraisms" or "Chiasmus". It's all they have when it comes to the Book of Mormon.

For more on Smth & his last days and his battle to control Nauvoo and the courts there, see my thread here, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47057

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