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 Post subject: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:36 pm 
God

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I've considered some cognitive distortions that the LDS church has ingrained in me, especially polarized thinking, but I wonder if there are some ways which I've missed.

Which of the following thinking distortions have you noticed taught in church (or society in general)?

Always being right
Being wrong is unthinkable. This cognitive distortion is characterized by actively trying to prove one's actions or thoughts to be correct, while sometimes prioritizing self-interest over the feelings of another person.

Blaming
The opposite of personalization; holding other people responsible for the harm they cause, and especially for their intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress on us.
Example: someone blames their spouse entirely for marital problems, instead of looking at his/her own part in the problems.

Disqualifying the positive
Discounting positive events.
Example: Upon receiving a congratulation, a person dismisses it out-of-hand, believing it to be undeserved, and automatically interpreting the compliment (at least inwardly) as an attempt at flattery or perhaps as arising out of naïveté.

Emotional reasoning
Presuming that negative feelings expose the true nature of things, and experiencing reality as a reflection of emotionally linked thoughts. Thinking something is true, solely based on a feeling.
Example: "I feel (i.e. think that I am) stupid or boring, therefore I must be." Or, feeling that fear of flying in planes means planes are a very dangerous way to travel. Or, concluding that it's hopeless to clean one's house due to being overwhelmed by the prospect of cleaning.

Fallacy of change
Relying on social control to obtain cooperative actions from another person.

Fallacy of fairness
Becoming guilty when one acts against justice or upset when someone else acts unjustly.

Filtering
Focusing entirely on negative elements of a situation, to the exclusion of the positive. Also, the brain's tendency to filter out information which does not conform to already held beliefs.
Example: After receiving comments about a work presentation, a person focuses on the single critical comment and ignores what went well.

Jumping to conclusions
Reaching preliminary conclusions (usually negative) from little (if any) evidence. Two specific subtypes are identified:
Mind reading: Inferring a person's possible or probable (usually negative) thoughts from their behavior and nonverbal communication; taking precautions against the worst reasonably suspected case or some other preliminary conclusion, without asking the person.
Example: A student assumes the readers of their paper have already made up their mind concerning its topic, and therefore writing the paper is a pointless exercise.

Fortune-telling: predicting outcomes (usually negative) of events. Example: Being convinced of failure before a test, when the student is in fact prepared.

Labeling and mislabeling
A more severe type of overgeneralization; attributing a person's actions to their character instead of some accidental attribute. Rather than assuming the behavior to be accidental or extrinsic, the person assigns a label to someone or something that implies the character of that person or thing. Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that has a strong connotation of a person's evaluation of the event.
Example of "labeling": Instead of believing that you made a mistake, you believe that you are a loser, because only a loser would make that kind of mistake. Or, someone who made a bad first impression is a "jerk", in the absence of some more specific cause.

Magnification and minimization
Giving proportionally greater weight to a perceived failure, weakness or threat, or lesser weight to a perceived success, strength or opportunity, so the weight differs from that assigned to the event or thing by others. This is common enough in the normal population to popularize idioms such as "make a mountain out of a molehill". In depressed clients, often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and negative characteristics are understated. There is one subtype of magnification:
Catastrophizing – Giving greater weight to the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or experiencing a situation as unbearable or impossible when it is just uncomfortable. Example: A teenager is too afraid to start driver's training because he believes he would get himself into an accident.

Overgeneralization
Making hasty generalizations from insufficient experiences and evidence. Making a very broad conclusion based on a single incident or a single piece of evidence. If something bad happens only once, it is expected to happen over and over again.
Example: A person is lonely and often spends most of her time at home. Her friends sometimes ask her to come out for dinner and meet new people. She feels it is useless to try to meet people. No one really could like her.

Polarized Thinking (or “Black and White” Thinking).
In polarized thinking, things are either “black-or-white.” We have to be perfect or we’re a failure — there is no middle ground. You place people or situations in “either/or” categories, with no shades of gray or allowing for the complexity of most people and situations. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
( http://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-c ... stortions/ )

Personalization
Attributing personal responsibility, including the resulting praise or blame, for events over which a person has no control.
Example: A mother whose child is struggling in school blames herself entirely for being a bad mother, because she believes that her deficient parenting is responsible. In fact, the real cause may be something else entirely.

Should statements
Doing, or expecting others to do, what they morally should or ought to do irrespective of the particular case the person is faced with. This involves conforming strenuously to ethical categorical imperatives which, by definition, "always apply," or to hypothetical imperatives which apply in that general type of case. Albert Ellis termed this "musturbation". Psychotherapist Michael C. Graham describes this as "expecting the world to be different than it is".
Example: After a performance, a concert pianist believes he or she should not have made so many mistakes. Or, while waiting for an appointment, thinking that the service provider should be on time, and feeling bitter and resentful as a result.

Splitting (All-or-nothing thinking or dichotomous reasoning)
Seeing things in black or white as opposed to shades of gray; thinking in terms of false dilemmas. Splitting involves using terms like "always", "every" or "never" when this is neither true, nor equivalent to the truth.
Example: When an admired person makes a minor mistake, the admiration is turned into contempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:27 am 
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Come on guys - any thoughts and comments at all?

Do you still struggle with any of these? I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:27 am 
The Outcast

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Hey, Amore,

I think you have assembled and described a fine listing of several LDS distortions. Each is a weakness of human thinking, and in my experience, each was accentuated and to a degree encouraged by the LDS church and culture. Since departing the LDS faith almost 35 years ago, I think each distortion you list has been moderated in me. I think part of the moderation has come through age, experience and wisdom, but as I look at counterparts my same age that have remained in the LDS faith, most yet seem afflicted by these distortions to a degree beyond where I am at with them. So I do also attribute that the lessening of these distortions in myself is in part due to my having distanced myself and no longer being immersed in those LDS teachings and culture.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:54 am 
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Disqualifying the positive and fallacy of fairness are the biggest ones that still affect me, though sometimes I do tend to do catastrophizing and should statements.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:17 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
Hey, Amore,

I think you have assembled and described a fine listing of several LDS distortions. Each is a weakness of human thinking, and in my experience, each was accentuated and to a degree encouraged by the LDS church and culture. Since departing the LDS faith almost 35 years ago, I think each distortion you list has been moderated in me. I think part of the moderation has come through age, experience and wisdom, but as I look at counterparts my same age that have remained in the LDS faith, most yet seem afflicted by these distortions to a degree beyond where I am at with them. So I do also attribute that the lessening of these distortions in myself is in part due to my having distanced myself and no longer being immersed in those LDS teachings and culture.

Thank you SockPuppet,
I think, as you've implied, that much of it comes with common sense - especially after living a bit.
And it's easier to see clearly, when you are not under influence of mind-control, which LDS activity has tended to be.

I wonder if there will ever come a time when cognitive distortions (& basic logical fallacies) are common knowledge - even in the church.
In other words, I wonder if the church leaders will ever try truth wherever it's found - and encourage others to do so also.
If they did, so much would change!
There wouldn't even be the belief in human sacrifice and scapegoating - yet what religious icon or symbol would they use to unify them?
When the sacrament is passed, I try to tell my kids it's a reminder that just as they eat the bread & water and it nourishes them within "the kingdom of God is within you."


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:19 pm 
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VNephi wrote:
Disqualifying the positive and fallacy of fairness are the biggest ones that still affect me, though sometimes I do tend to do catastrophizing and should statements.

You're not alone. I still struggle with those too - also personalizing.
In the effort to truly overcome depression and anxiety, I've considered life traps ( http://www.lifetraptest.com/ ) in relation to cognitive distortions I've learned.
It's given me a little more direction in living better.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:22 pm 
The Outcast

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Amore wrote:
I wonder if there will ever come a time when cognitive distortions (& basic logical fallacies) are common knowledge - even in the church.
In other words, I wonder if the church leaders will ever try truth wherever it's found - and encourage others to do so also.
If they did, so much would change!

That is precisely why I do not think the church leaders will every try truth wherever it's found. The most significant change, for those leaders, would be the loss of their power. I don't think they'll give that up willingly.

Early in the church, JSJr said every church member could receive revelation, but had to stop that before the church had reached the 1st anniversary of its organization. It was organized on 4/6/1830. In September 1830, just five months later, JSJr pronounced a revelation (D&C 28) that bootstrapped for himself (the president of the church) the exclusive right to receive revelations for the church.
D&C 28:2 wrote:
But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee [Oliver Cowdery], no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
The LDS scripture introduction to Section 28 provides "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, at Fayette, New York, September 1830."

Just five months into the church's existence, JSJr realized how powerless he would be if anyone, even Oliver Cowdery, could also receive revelations for the church. Truth from other sources is an anathema to the consolidation of power that JSJr and then his successors as presidents of the church have enjoyed.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:56 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
That is precisely why I do not think the church leaders will every try truth wherever it's found. The most significant change, for those leaders, would be the loss of their power. I don't think they'll give that up willingly.

I think that's true, but I also think that they only have power because people believe they do.
And most "members" are more interested in being a "member in good standing" than rocking the ship.
I just got kicked off another LDS forum for stating the truth, and family & "friends" have turned against me when I've pointed out less pleasant facts regarding the church.
It comes down to people worshiping the church over God/higher GOoD.

Quote:
Early in the church, JSJr said every church member could receive revelation, but had to stop that before the church had reached the 1st anniversary of its organization. It was organized on 4/6/1830. In September 1830, just five months later, JSJr pronounced a revelation (D&C 28) that bootstrapped for himself (the president of the church) the exclusive right to receive revelations for the church.
D&C 28:2 wrote:
But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee [Oliver Cowdery], no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
The LDS scripture introduction to Section 28 provides "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, at Fayette, New York, September 1830."

Just five months into the church's existence, JSJr realized how powerless he would be if anyone, even Oliver Cowdery, could also receive revelations for the church. Truth from other sources is an anathema to the consolidation of power that JSJr and then his successors as presidents of the church have enjoyed.

Interesting and sad.
I think it shows as Lincoln said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
I believe that Joseph Smith did have some kind of spiritual experience (s) but I don't think they were as purely good as history writers would have us believe. And I know from experience, that feeling the spirit is not necessarily a handbook of instructions, but rather a general intuitive signpost saying, this feeling is good. How we interpret the rest, is often subjectively and colored by our own strengths and weaknesses.

Moses was right about "thou shalt not have any other gods before" God.
In giving that commandment, he was basically saying as Jesus did - to NOT worship them, but to look to God only.
That commandment is so significant!
It's basically saying, don't get stuck on anything or anyone - but always look for what is GOoD in each evolving moment. It's the ultimate human challenge, don't you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:22 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
Early in the church, JSJr said every church member could receive revelation, but had to stop that before the church had reached the 1st anniversary of its organization. It was organized on 4/6/1830. In September 1830, just five months later, JSJr pronounced a revelation (D&C 28) that bootstrapped for himself (the president of the church) the exclusive right to receive revelations for the church.
D&C 28:2 wrote:
But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee [Oliver Cowdery], no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
The LDS scripture introduction to Section 28 provides "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, at Fayette, New York, September 1830."

Just five months into the church's existence, JSJr realized how powerless he would be if anyone, even Oliver Cowdery, could also receive revelations for the church. Truth from other sources is an anathema to the consolidation of power that JSJr and then his successors as presidents of the church have enjoyed.

Amore wrote:
Interesting and sad.
I think it shows as Lincoln said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
I believe that Joseph Smith did have some kind of spiritual experience (s) but I don't think they were as purely good as history writers would have us believe. And I know from experience, that feeling the spirit is not necessarily a handbook of instructions, but rather a general intuitive signpost saying, this feeling is good. How we interpret the rest, is often subjectively and colored by our own strengths and weaknesses.

Moses was right about "thou shalt not have any other gods before" God.
In giving that commandment, he was basically saying as Jesus did - to NOT worship them, but to look to God only.
That commandment is so significant!
It's basically saying, don't get stuck on anything or anyone - but always look for what is GOoD in each evolving moment. It's the ultimate human challenge, don't you think?

I would like to offer my take on this...if I may?

As a True Messenger, Joseph Smith's veil had been pierced. No other man at that time had had this adjustment made. He was the only one who knew the Real Truth about what is really going on here inside of mortality. Oliver Cowdery had not had his veil pierced; no one else had during that time period. When Oliver Cowdery chose to start receiving revelation and teach them, he wasn't basing them on anything which resulted in having his veil pierced. They were made up inside of his own mind. Even if he based them upon things Joseph had told him, he didn't KNOW them like Joseph did (he could only believe them). Once Joseph's veil had been pierced, he KNEW Real Truth---he didn't need to guess or surmise or even exercise faith anymore.

When Joseph taught that each of us can receive revelation, he was telling the truth. He used the word "revelation"...a religious word....in order to attempt to teach something real. That reality is that we are each connected to our own advanced self---and we are always connected; though not in-tuned. This connection is accomplished through our mortal brain---which is really a very, very advanced type of "computer" (if you will). While we are in mortality, we are existing in three different estates simultaneously. Joseph tried to teach about the second and third estates through the Endowment when he portrayed a sleeping Michael as also being Adam and Eve. At the end of the original Endowment, Michael wakes up (that was removed by Brigham Young who had no idea what it meant because he was NOT a True Messenger---his veil had never been pierced), indicating that Michael had still been existing as Michael, even while he participated inside of mortality as Adam and as Eve (which is yet another great mystery revealed!!!). We are able to become in-tuned with our second estate if we pay attention to the "still small voice"---which represents our connection. For the most part, however, our advanced self loses complete control over the third estate self because inside of mortality we can't remember anything that has taken place before we got here (which is the purpose for the veil).


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:29 am 
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jo1952 wrote:
I would like to offer my take on this...if I may?

As a True Messenger, Joseph Smith's veil had been pierced. No other man at that time had had this adjustment made. He was the only one who knew the Real Truth about what is really going on here inside of mortality. Oliver Cowdery had not had his veil pierced; no one else had during that time period. When Oliver Cowdery chose to start receiving revelation and teach them, he wasn't basing them on anything which resulted in having his veil pierced. They were made up inside of his own mind. Even if he based them upon things Joseph had told him, he didn't KNOW them like Joseph did (he could only believe them). Once Joseph's veil had been pierced, he KNEW Real Truth---he didn't need to guess or surmise or even exercise faith anymore.


I am sure that Joseph Smith would have been delighted to hear you talk in this way. It's more or less the view of himself that he wanted people to believe.

But ... how do we know it is true? Why are you so sure that Smith as well as Cowdery was not simply telling people things that "were made up inside of his own mind"? Do you have some kind of inside information?

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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:21 am 
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Quote:
D&C 28:2 wrote:
But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee [Oliver Cowdery], no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.


I forgot to mention something else about this. "for he receiveth them even as Moses" points to why ONLY True Messengers have access to KNOWING the mysteries of "God". As a result, they no longer function inside of mortality based upon faith. Unless someone has had their veil pierced (which is an actual, physical, event which takes place because someone from outside of mortality enters this realm and touches them), then they are NOT a True Messenger. If someone thinks that they are a prophet who has not had their brain adjusted, then they are merely deceiving them self...and they are making it all up inside of their own minds. At the instant a True Messenger's brain gets adjusted (the programing inside of their brain which previously prevented them from being aware of the connection between their mortal self and their second estate self gets turned off), they KNOW the Real Truth about who they are, who we are, and what is really going on here.

Christ did not need to have His brain adjusted. He was born into mortality fully aware of His connection to His second estate self. He KNEW exactly who He was and what His role was, who we are, and the real truth about what is going on here during His entire journey inside of mortality. I can't even begin to comprehend what it must have been like to have this knowledge your entire life while not being able to speak or do anything that would interfere with the free will desires of others to believe and/or do whatever they wanted to believe and/or do.


Last edited by jo1952 on Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:25 am 
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Brain adjusted? Do I go to a neuro-chiropractor for that?

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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:43 am 
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spotlight wrote:
Brain adjusted? Do I go to a neuro-chiropractor for that?

LOL!! I realize you are just having fun with what I now believe. However, I will also share that all True Messengers have volunteered to be True Messengers before they ever enter mortality. This, of course, is also in accordance with free will. Inasmuch as we are eternal beings, without beginning and without end, we each have more than likely desired to experience an eternity as a True Messenger...and even as a Christ.

No, you don't go to a neuro-chiropractor. Someone who is serving as a Creator inside of an eternal round will enter mortality to make the adjustment.

People who have had brain injuries, or who have been born with some abnormality of the brain, sometimes exhibit what we think are special powers. We may call them savant or prodigy or the like. What has happened is that the damaged brain (the damaged hard drive) is allowing part of the connection between our advanced self and our third estate self to bubble to the surface (so to speak). They don't really have more power or intelligence or talent than the rest of us. They are just accessing more of what they already know and were already able to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:17 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
Amore wrote:
Interesting and sad.
I think it shows as Lincoln said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
I believe that Joseph Smith did have some kind of spiritual experience (s) but I don't think they were as purely good as history writers would have us believe. And I know from experience, that feeling the spirit is not necessarily a handbook of instructions, but rather a general intuitive signpost saying, this feeling is good. How we interpret the rest, is often subjectively and colored by our own strengths and weaknesses.

Moses was right about "thou shalt not have any other gods before" God.
In giving that commandment, he was basically saying as Jesus did - to NOT worship them, but to look to God only.
That commandment is so significant!
It's basically saying, don't get stuck on anything or anyone - but always look for what is GOoD in each evolving moment. It's the ultimate human challenge, don't you think?

I would like to offer my take on this...if I may?

As a True Messenger, Joseph Smith's veil had been pierced. No other man at that time had had this adjustment made. He was the only one who knew the Real Truth about what is really going on here inside of mortality. Oliver Cowdery had not had his veil pierced; no one else had during that time period. When Oliver Cowdery chose to start receiving revelation and teach them, he wasn't basing them on anything which resulted in having his veil pierced. They were made up inside of his own mind. Even if he based them upon things Joseph had told him, he didn't KNOW them like Joseph did (he could only believe them). Once Joseph's veil had been pierced, he KNEW Real Truth---he didn't need to guess or surmise or even exercise faith anymore.

When Joseph taught that each of us can receive revelation, he was telling the truth. He used the word "revelation"...a religious word....in order to attempt to teach something real. That reality is that we are each connected to our own advanced self---and we are always connected; though not in-tuned. This connection is accomplished through our mortal brain---which is really a very, very advanced type of "computer" (if you will). While we are in mortality, we are existing in three different estates simultaneously. Joseph tried to teach about the second and third estates through the Endowment when he portrayed a sleeping Michael as also being Adam and Eve. At the end of the original Endowment, Michael wakes up (that was removed by Brigham Young who had no idea what it meant because he was NOT a True Messenger---his veil had never been pierced), indicating that Michael had still been existing as Michael, even while he participated inside of mortality as Adam and as Eve (which is yet another great mystery revealed!!!). We are able to become in-tuned with our second estate if we pay attention to the "still small voice"---which represents our connection. For the most part, however, our advanced self loses complete control over the third estate self because inside of mortality we can't remember anything that has taken place before we got here (which is the purpose for the veil).

Thanks, Jo. :)
I like that you mentioned about our first estate - and the difference between believing something and knowing from experience.

I believe that Joseph Smith did get a glimpse of a more universal reality, but I think that many others have had that too. And I think that Joseph Smith, as well as others who had revelations, were not perfect, and allowed their subjective ideas to influence their interpretations and teachings.

IE: Joseph Smith went along with the idea of Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat (a lie that the "universal" church had placed in canon). He based much of his ideas on this lie, yet some of his ideas were inspired - and good and helped many see and do better. Still, he played along with the satanic lie that Jesus must have the glory - that we should worship Jesus over God, that God is mean and requires Jesus to be killed for the mistakes God created us to make.

Ultimately, it reminds me to not trust in the flesh - not even prophets who wrote (& others who warped & edited) scriptures.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:41 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
People who have had brain injuries,...they don't really have more power or intelligence or talent than the rest of us. They are just accessing more of what they already know and were already able to do.


So brain injury...good, but fire...bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nApazedQ7-E

My older brother, a non-member, picked me up from the airport when I came home from my mission to Argentina. He observed that I knew enough about religion now to make a lot of money off of it. I should have listened to him and gotten something back for those two years of my life.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:29 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
Brain adjusted? Do I go to a neuro-chiropractor for that?


No, Monty Python...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJlo2WRDbw

Oh... BRAIN... not BRIAN... :redface:

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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:54 am 
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Chap wrote:
jo1952 wrote:
I would like to offer my take on this...if I may?

As a True Messenger, Joseph Smith's veil had been pierced. No other man at that time had had this adjustment made. He was the only one who knew the Real Truth about what is really going on here inside of mortality. Oliver Cowdery had not had his veil pierced; no one else had during that time period. When Oliver Cowdery chose to start receiving revelation and teach them, he wasn't basing them on anything which resulted in having his veil pierced. They were made up inside of his own mind. Even if he based them upon things Joseph had told him, he didn't KNOW them like Joseph did (he could only believe them). Once Joseph's veil had been pierced, he KNEW Real Truth---he didn't need to guess or surmise or even exercise faith anymore.


I am sure that Joseph Smith would have been delighted to hear you talk in this way. It's more or less the view of himself that he wanted people to believe.

But ... how do we know it is true? Why are you so sure that Smith as well as Cowdery was not simply telling people things that "were made up inside of his own mind"? Do you have some kind of inside information?


OK, there won't be an answer ...

I really ought to stop asking people like jo1952 or Franktalk why they think the opinions they so generously share about LIfe, the Universe and Everything are correct.

Every time I do that, a fairy dies.

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I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:41 am 
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Amore wrote:
Thanks, Jo. :)
I like that you mentioned about our first estate - and the difference between believing something and knowing from experience.

I believe that Joseph Smith did get a glimpse of a more universal reality, but I think that many others have had that too. And I think that Joseph Smith, as well as others who had revelations, were not perfect, and allowed their subjective ideas to influence their interpretations and teachings.

IE: Joseph Smith went along with the idea of Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat (a lie that the "universal" church had placed in canon). He based much of his ideas on this lie, yet some of his ideas were inspired - and good and helped many see and do better. Still, he played along with the satanic lie that Jesus must have the glory - that we should worship Jesus over God, that God is mean and requires Jesus to be killed for the mistakes God created us to make.

Ultimately, it reminds me to not trust in the flesh - not even prophets who wrote (& others who warped & edited) scriptures.

Thank you, Amore!

This is where I now am when considering scripture and religion in general. It is a part of my own personal journey. No one needs to agree with me....and no one needs to believe it.

Christ didn't want us to trust in the flesh either....though He also did not interfere with their free will desire to cling to religion. He taught from the perspective of their already-established beliefs...trying to get them to live it more kindly. This, even though their beliefs couldn't possibly cause them to treat each other with equality.

It is religion which even teaches that there IS a "God"---and that by entreating "God", that "God" will then treat people unequally by giving those who entreat Him more abundantly. However, "God" is not a respecter of persons...all are alike unto "God". The sun shines on everyone....the rain falls on everyone. In the Book of Mormon we can see how Christ did the same thing as Moses (Moses gave the people religion after they refused to meet with the Lord on their own). After Christ taught the people the same things He had taught the Jews (the same words taught in the Sermon on the Mount), He asked the Nephites to go home and ponder the things He had taught. But the people didn't want to go home and ponder them. They hung around looking for more than His simple message. That is when He groaned within....their "wickedness" was to get more from Him. In order to follow the universal code of free will, Christ went ahead and gave them religion. The religious will always "see" and "hear" this as a confirmation that "God" loves them more, thinks that they are special, are chosen, etc., above others. Also, in accordance with free will, Christ and other TM's simply will not come right out and say that religion is "wrong"---they will, however, warn about what their religious beliefs are doing to their ability to figure out what is going on here. Ultimately, the religious concept that some are better than others (which is also a basic tenet of other belief systems as well....not just religion) is causing most of the world's suffering (which goes way beyond the suffering of natural events and circumstances). John's Revelation tries to teach what this looks like.

Joseph also gave the people religion. Even though he now KNEW the real truth, he gave the people the religion they desired. They had already rejected the simple gospel message. Because they read the Book of Mormon through the eyes and ears of religion (they already believed in the "God" of religion...so that is all they were able to see and hear), they missed this second chance to "see" and "hear" and come unto the "Lord" (to finally give up religion and just do the simple message of doing unto others what they would have others do unto them).

While we are all capable of receiving "revelation" (i.e., tap into the connection between our higher self and our mortal self), the TYPE of "revelation" received by Joseph on behalf of the people was ALL in accordance with their free will desires. We can even see that Joseph "receives" revelation AFTER the people ask him questions. He wasn't giving the people revelations from "God"! He was making up revelation according to what they wanted. This is very different from being connected to any higher self. His revelations weren't "inspired"...they were made up (though there are some hints and clues he tried to mix in---that is where we will get the idea that they were inspired---because of the truth he included). There is a major irony inside of D&C 84 (Remember, as a revelation being received on behalf of the Church, this also was made up by Joseph...he didn't need to go to the Lord about this matter. Joseph already KNEW the real truth. Giving the people the desires of their hearts was something he was mandated to do.) ....after the "Lord" tells the people that they are under condemnation for being in a state of unbelief (In other words, rejecting---not believing---once again the simple gospel message and DOING what He taught), Joseph IMMEDIATELY gives the people religion. This was exactly what Christ had done with the Nephites. Just like with the Nephites, the people grabbed onto the religion aspect of that D&C section....believing that this was proof that "God" favored them above others. There was zero real power and authority being given to the people on the earth...not EVER. If "God" WERE to give to some and not to others, this would cause "God" to change...He would no longer be a non-respecter of persons. All would no longer be alike unto "God". He would cease to be "God".


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:52 am 
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Location: On the imaginary axis
Chap wrote:
OK, there won't be an answer ...

I really ought to stop asking people like jo1952 or Franktalk why they think the opinions they so generously share about LIfe, the Universe and Everything are correct.

Every time I do that, a fairy dies.


jo1952 wrote:
No one needs to agree with me....and no one needs to believe it.


But why do YOU think this stuff is true?

Presumably you do, or you wouldn't take the trouble to post all this material. Or do you just write whatever makes you feel warm inside?

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1702
grindael wrote:
spotlight wrote:
Brain adjusted? Do I go to a neuro-chiropractor for that?


No, Monty Python...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJlo2WRDbw

Oh... BRAIN... not BRIAN... :redface:


Frank and Jo deny the existence of interchanged "letters" in the DNA code that is part of evolution so the two spellings must be the same to them anyhow. :razz:

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Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee


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 Post subject: Re: Which LDS distortions have you noticed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am
Posts: 1088
Chap wrote:
OK, there won't be an answer ...

Oh, but "...there will be an answer, Let it be.
Let it be, Let it be, Let it be! Whisper words of wisdom: let it be." :)


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