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 Post subject: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:53 pm 
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Over on Sic et Non, a primary staff writer shares his nunaced views about how he disagrees with Catholicism but isn't anti-Catholic. One wonders if those who criticize Mormonism are also allowed the same nuance of thinking by the Mopologists, but at any rate, one of the greatest minds on SeN, Billy Shears, who also happens to be a personal hero of mine, shows up with some sobering thoughts:

Billy Shears wrote:
If past leaders like Bruce R. McConkie had anti-Catholic sentiments, we should acknowledge that not all of it comes from the misguided views of Protestantism that seeped into the Church--some of it comes from the Book of Mormon itself.


Lou Midgley immediately pounces to set things straight:

Midgley wrote:
Where is there in the Book of Mormon any mention of the Roman Catholic Church? Billy should be aware that some have read that into the Book of Mormon but there is literature that has persuaded Latter-day Saints that this is a seriously flawed reading of that text. And essentially none of Bruce R. McConkie's colleagues agreed with him on that and dozens of other matters, and certainly none of those fifteen Apostles who where recently in Rome to dedicate a Temple hold anything like that opinion. We have, as they pointed out, some serious differences, but we also have much more in common.


Well, okay then. And oddly, Kiwi57 tries his hand at relativism, which I'm sure that makes Elder Maxwell happy on the other side of the veil:

Kiwi57 wrote:
BS: "I'm talking about the sources of the church's historical anti-Catholicism."

In light of your subsequent questions, maybe it isn't only the Scriptures that we read through our own lenses. Assumptions undergird nearly all of our thinking, nearly all of the time, and that's an example.


Midgley agrees:

Quote:
Exactly!


I assume that Kiwi offered his criticisms of certain "Arch-Feminists" recently as objective truth and not as an example of seeing a matter through his own biased lens. Perhaps someone should ask him for clarification on that. However, when it comes to the Church's historic sentiments about the Roman Catholic Church and the doctrine of the apostasy, this is all a big misunderstanding fueled by bad assumptions:

Midgley wrote:
Billy, they read it into the Book of Mormon. But there is no such things as "the church's historical anti-Catholicism." There was, instead, a rather thoughtless tendency to see a kind of total apostasy in the Roman Catholic Church. But this was merely the opinions of some individual Latter-day Saints, who almost always came out of the bitter conflict generated by the Reformation with the Roman Catholic Church. What you call the "church's" official opinion on such matters.


DCP wrote:
People inevitably tend to read the scriptures (and all other texts) through the lenses they inherit. Overcoming this inheritance takes genuine hard work. If it's done at all.


Okay, okay, I think I got it. But Bruce R. aside, what if a person was an apostle not as controversial as Bruce R. McConkie, was commissioned by the Church to write, wrote from within the temple, and then the book written was universally renowned by the Church and held up as scripture and became the most famous doctrinal statement from the Church of all time? This book has been required reading for missionaries, and if not that, one of the few books permitted to accompany a missionary along with the scriptures themselves. I'm speaking of none other than James E. Talmage and his work of scripture, Jesus the Christ.

From the Church's official website:

https://www.LDS.org/manual/jesus-the-ch ... =eng#note2

Talmage wrote:
But the church was already in great measure an apostate institution and even in crude outline of organization and service bore but remote resemblance to the Church of Jesus Christ, founded by the Savior and builded through the instrumentality of the apostles. Whatever vestiges of genuine Christianity may have possibly survived in the church before, were buried beyond the sight of man by the abuses that followed the elevation of the churchly organization to secular favor through the decree of Constantine.


I guess this is the "thoughtless tendency" to see total apostasy in the RCC, by the most important Mormon commentator of our time. Just "some people" who don't know as much as the FARMS Mopologists.

Talmage wrote:
The spirit of apostasy, by which the church had become permeated before Constantine threw about it the mantle of imperial protection and emblazoned it with the insignia of state, now was roused to increased activity as the leaven of Satan’s own culture flourished under the conditions most favorable for such fungoid growth.


LOL!! That's right Kiwi, Billy Shears is just making this stuff up.

Talmage wrote:
Yet this church, reeking with the stench of worldly ambition and lust of dominance, audaciously claimed to be the Church established by Him who affirmed: “My kingdom is not of this world.”


If I were a missionary right now, I'd be encouraged to read this book, while forbidden from reading Mormon Interpreter or Sic et Non.

Talmage wrote:
The arrogant assumptions of the Church of Rome were not less extravagant in spiritual than in secular administration. In her loudly asserted control over the spiritual destinies of the souls of men, she blasphemously pretended to forgive or retain individual sins, and to inflict or remit penalties both on earth and beyond the grave. She sold permission to commit sin and bartered for gold charters of indulgent forgiveness for sins already done. Her pope, proclaiming himself the vicar of God, sat in state to judge as God Himself; and by such blasphemy fulfilled the prophecy of Paul following his warning in relation to the awful conditions antecedent to the second coming of the Christ


Maybe it's my lens is a little dirty and I'm misunderstanding this stuff -- what do you think?

Talmage wrote:
In her unrestrained abandon to the license of arrogated authority, the Church of Rome hesitated not to transgress the law of God, change the ordinances essential to salvation, and ruthlessly break the everlasting covenant, thereby defiling the earth


LOL!!! @ "it's an anti-Mormon lie!"

Talmage wrote:
She altered the ordinance of baptism, destroying its symbolism and associating with it imitations of pagan rites; she corrupted the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper and befouled the doctrine thereof by the vagary of transubstantiation;


Note that DCP recently took on Gemli for mocking transubstantiation, arguing it was a tremendous feat of Aristotelian logic.

Talmage wrote:
she revelled in unholy union with the theories and sophistries of men, and so adulterated the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ as to produce a creed rank with superstition and heresy; she promulgated such perverted doctrines regarding the human body as to make the divinely formed tabernacle of flesh appear as a thing fit only to be tortured and contemned;


I guess I'm cherry picking right now, and taking these quotes totally out of context. Certainly, the 15 apostles who just went to Italy on vacation don't have anything to do with this commissioned work by Talmage that stands strong on LDS.org.

Talmage wrote:
Under the tyrannous repression incident to usurped and unrighteous domination by the Roman church, civilization was r____ and for centuries was practically halted in its course. The period of retrogression is known in history as the Dark Ages.


It just says the Roman Church! He's not talking about Catholicism necessarily!

Well, friends, if you want to know what Mormonism thinks of the Catholic Church, don't go the Sic et Non, go straight to LDS.org and see for yourself that basically, the Church has taught and always taught that the Roman Catholic Church is a fungoid growth of the Devil that corrupted all that is holy and ushered in the Dark Ages.

One might say the apologists are nice to pretend it isn't so, but really, they are just trying to avoid looking bad and getting around apologizing for their institution's anti-Catholic dogma. "It was just bad assumptions by a few people that never represented the Church!" If they really, sincerely hold the positions they are claiming to hold, then they need to publicly denounce the work Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage as a manuscript from Satan himself. If they can do that, then I'll acknowledge their position as sincere.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Well, friends, if you want to know what Mormonism thinks of the Catholic Church, don't go the Sic et Non, go straight to LDS.org and see for yourself that basically, the Church has taught and always taught that the Roman Catholic Church is a fungoid growth of the Devil that corrupted all that is holy and ushered in the Dark Ages.


Been there done that. I wouldn't trust DCP any further than I could throw his fat ass. I know everything I already need to know about Mormonism, thank you. He's nothing but a FAT slithering snake -- hissing and hissing.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
I wouldn't trust DCP any further than I could throw his fat ass.

What if he sincerely believes he is called to do the time-honored apologetic practice of Lying for the Lord? Perhaps Dr. Peterson has even been set aside in this calling via the secret and sacred ceremony where he was bent over and spanked while chanting the oath, "Thank you, Elder, may I have another to ensure that I will deceive in thy service".

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:23 pm 
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DCP :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:55 pm 
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The convenient out for the Talmage comments is he was just speaking as a man and is perfectly free to express HIS OWN opinion on matters. Every time they get caught with their pants down they fall back on this reasoning. Even if earlier leaders claimed they were being guided by the spirit, today the out is always oh that is just his opinion. That way they believe they can have a win win situation.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:56 am 
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Very funny. The church that began because all the others had gone astray has never been anti-Catholic. Maybe folks in the burnt-over district had never heard of the RCC?


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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:37 am 
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From the CURRENT Gospel Principles manual:

Quote:
Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance.


https://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princ ... s?lang=eng

"those called Christians"

"false Christianity"

And if you look up Theodosius--the Roman emperor who made that "false Christianity" the state religion--in the Catholic Encyclopedia, you'll find they have a bit of a different take on him.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:47 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
The convenient out for the Talmage comments is he was just speaking as a man and is perfectly free to express HIS OWN opinion on matters. Every time they get caught with their pants down they fall back on this reasoning.



What about when Mormon Man-god gets caught with his pants down? Is he also talking as a man?

Do take a walk down into the TELESTIAL forum and consider this question:

Heavenly Father has an ANUS?

It gets god off the hook too, everytime

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:56 am 
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Elder Ballard in 2015 said...
Quote:
Most people don’t know where they came from. They don’t know why they’re here, and they don’t know where they’re going.

And if they have a Catholic background, they don’t know who God is. They don’t know who the Savior is; nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is.

And we know who they are because Joseph knelt in the presence of the Father and the Son, and our Father introduced the Savior to him in these words: “Joseph, this is my beloved son. Hear him.” A boy, who then was nurtured and trained by the Savior of the world to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth.
I wonder if Ballard reiterated that to the Pope when he met him last week?

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Last edited by I have a question on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:00 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I wonder if Ballard reiterated that to the Pope when he met him last week?


I wonder or even doubt that the pope even knows that Joseph Smith was porking 14 year old girls and the church covered it up. I'll bet the pope wouldn't have met with NelSatan had he known that.

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:25 am 
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The Midgley-Peterson turn towards textual nuance is charming. 1 Nephi's diatribe against the Whore of the Earth is extensive and ultimately open-ended and ambiguous in that its kernel strongly resembles stereotypes about Roman Catholicism but then grows to an all-encompassing "all who fight against the Lamb," which is certainly more than Roman Catholicism. So they have that going for them. Yes, "speaking as a man" (alert the non-binary activists!) provides a convenient out, and Midgley's "deep differences" accepts that there is a dispute but casts that dispute as strictly theological. The question therefore hinges on what is meant by "anti-Catholicism."

Hmmm. One of our superheroes, MSJack, has drawn our attention to this very interesting quotation from a Church publication:

MsJack wrote:
From the CURRENT Gospel Principles manual:

Quote:
Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance.


https://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princ ... s?lang=eng

"those called Christians"

"false Christianity"

And if you look up Theodosius--the Roman emperor who made that "false Christianity" the state religion--in the Catholic Encyclopedia, you'll find they have a bit of a different take on him.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm


Well, MSJack, perhaps Theodosius was unfortunately looking at Christianity through his own lens! But let us see if, changing terms, the same quotation would be considered anti-Mormon:

Quote:
Soon [LDS] beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The [LDS Church] adopted this false Christianity as [its] religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being [with] form [and] substance.


And to extend it:

Quote:
The spirit of apostasy, by which the church had become permeated before [Brigham Young] threw about it the mantle of imperial protection and emblazoned it with the insignia of state, now was roused to increased activity as the leaven of Satan’s own culture flourished under the conditions most favorable for such fungoid growth.


Quote:
Yet this [LDS] church, reeking with the stench of worldly ambition and lust of dominance, audaciously claimed to be the Church established by Him who affirmed: “My kingdom is not of this world.”


Quote:
The arrogant assumptions of the [LDS Church] were not less extravagant in spiritual than in secular administration. In her loudly asserted control over the spiritual destinies of the souls of men, she blasphemously pretended to [exalt human beings], and to inflict or remit penalties both on earth and beyond the grave. She [granted second anointings in exchange for years of large tithing and fast offering donations]. Her [prophet], proclaiming himself the [mouth] of God, sat in state to judge as God Himself; and by such blasphemy fulfilled the prophecy of Paul following his warning in relation to the awful conditions antecedent to the second coming of the Christ


etc. etc.

Anti-Mormon or just theological dispute?

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:41 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
The convenient out for the Talmage comments is he was just speaking as a man and is perfectly free to express HIS OWN opinion on matters. Every time they get caught with their pants down they fall back on this reasoning. Even if earlier leaders claimed they were being guided by the spirit, today the out is always oh that is just his opinion. That way they believe they can have a win win situation.


I refereed soccer for many years, and technically they don't have rules in soccer, but "laws." There are many laws but generally only a few you call during the course of the match.

In regards to your point, there is a law called "obstruction" and as a ref when something goofy happened, which happens all the time in youth soccer, and I couldn't pin it down to a specific foul according to the the laws, I would just call obstruction.

So it goes with the saint, except, we had two go to calls...it was "just opinion," or "by personal revelation." (edit...a third go to call when when all else fails...."I know the church is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of...etc etc etc....)

Talamage was/is so important to framing what saints believe today, in my opinion he is the father of modern (post BY) LDS theology. He, Roberts, and a few others had to pick up the mess left by Joseph and Brigham. They even invented a theological term called divine investiture.

If it was not for Talmage's "opinion," the LDS church would still be teaching and singing that Adam was God.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:13 am 
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Midgley and Peterson throw McConkie, Talmage and Ballard under the bus by asserting that the Whore of all the earth is NOT the Roman Catholic Church and yet they fail to tell us who exactly this whore actually is. If not all other Churches other that the Mormon Church, which I might add would include the Roman Catholic Church, what church is that Great and Abominable Church?

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:45 am 
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Aside from prominent members like Orson Pratt's assertion that the Catholic Church is the Great Thot (which went on for 10 years before the Mormon church got around to repudiating it) and Bruce R. McConkie's first edition stating the same thing, you have:

"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."

- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

which basically called out, very pointedly, that other Christians were part of the Devil-ran Whore Church.

I mean, c'mon. Mormons have taught for generations that the RCC was the Harlot of the Earth. I spent two years in Peru as a representative of the Mormon Church. My Mormon "reality" taught me that the Catholic Church was the Whore of All the Earth. I believed it. My companions believed it. The Mission President believed it. The active Mormon members in Peru believed it.

That doesn't happen in a vacuum, and apologists denying history and reality just aren't going to change the reality of millions of members that were taught otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: SeN: "Mormonism has never criticized the RCC!"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am 
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Some might think that Mormon god and Mormon Jesus might be anti-catholic as well as pretty much anti-all other religions of 1820 when they said this:

Quote:
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home.


But these would be wrong, wrong, wrong. "Abomination" meant something very different to Mormon god and Mormon Jesus. "Corrupt" also. It is "anti-moromon" to think otherwise and why are the critics always attacking Mormonism anyway? They are probably just jealous, just want to sin, can't handle the requirements Mormon god gives, or maybe suffer from mental illness?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:03 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

which basically called out, very pointedly, that other Christians were part of the Devil-ran Whore Church.

I mean, c'mon. Mormons have taught for generations that the RCC was the Harlot of the Earth. I spent two years in Peru as a representative of the Mormon Church. My Mormon "reality" taught me that the Catholic Church was the Whore of All the Earth. I believed it. My companions believed it. The Mission President believed it. The active Mormon members in Peru believed it.

That doesn't happen in a vacuum, and apologists denying history and reality just aren't going to change the reality of millions of members that were taught otherwise.

- Doc


Right, that's what we taught and believed. Even my LDS Book of Remembrance had some sort of reference to the pope and his crown being the church of the devil. That's what we were taught. It was Mormonism through and through. The church of the Lamb and the church of the Devil with the Catholics leading the charge.

Mormon apologists today are snakes and lie out of their goddamn dirty mouths.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:08 am 
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Exiled wrote:
"Abomination"


The ABOMINATION is the Mormon church and its so-called prophets. The Mormon religion is an abomination founded on lies and deception. It is my pleasure and privilege to mock this silly religion and expose it however I can. The whole Mormon god concept in itself is an utter abomination.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:26 am 
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Putting my apologist hat on, are we really sure that calling the Catholic Church the "whore of Babylon" is meant as an insult? I mean, she is a very physically attractive woman who brings a lot of people happiness.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Bruce meant it as a compliment.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:30 am 
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In my time at BYU, I brought up the "Great and Abominable Church" passage as evidence of Mormons attacking my religion a number of times. I was invariably informed that the passage referred specifically to the Roman Catholic church and not other Christians in general.

As a Protestant, I don't mind Mormons having scriptures that call the RC church names. It's not like Martin Luther didn't do that and worse. And if Mormons want to re-interpret those Scriptures in a more ecumenical light, more power to them.

It's these "We have always been at war with Eurasia"-esque denials that are grating.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:45 am 
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MsJack wrote:
As a Protestant, I don't mind Mormons having scriptures that call the RC church names.


Sorry, but you too belong to the church of the devil. The Book of Mormon has declared it. Even so, Amen.

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