Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

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_Spanner
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Spanner »

SteelHead wrote:Time zones.... It was dark here when he died?


He died at either 7 or 8 am in the morning, in April (depending on whether you favor the hemispheric or limited geography theory). The sun would have been well up in the Americas when he died and the darkness descended. So by dawn on Sunday would be the space of two days at the most.

It was a full moon as well, so the darkness should actually have lifted by midnight Saturday. Well less than two days.
_SteelHead
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _SteelHead »

Man, another adhoc apologetic shot down by science.

Image
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Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_TruthIsReason
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _TruthIsReason »

It’s apparent that none of you have taken the time to fully read this paper since you’re debating things that are already firmly settled within it. The following is found in its "Premises" section:

The Nephites used a 12-month calendar, each month containing 30 days – a [more than] reasonable assumption since:

- They considered the 11th month to be “in the latter end of the… year” (Alma 48:2, 21, 49:1).

- They observed the Law of Moses (Alma 25:15-16), which would have required such a calendar since many of its commandments were specific to particular months and days of the month (as we pointed out earlier), and this was the type of calendar used by the Israelites. To be exact, the months on the Hebrew calendar alternate between 29 and 30 days in length. While it’s true that an additional month is added to leap years, these years are in the minority and no 13th month is mentioned in the Bible.


Even if a 260-day calendar were somehow in use, one would need to explain why all dates given in the book appear in the first 11 months of the year as the odds of this happening by chance are less than 1%.

To settle the issue for good, if Nephite years were only 260 days, then the B.O.M would have reported that ~840 years passed between Lehi and Christ, not 600. The Lehites reported having left Jerusalem 1) right before the Babylonian captivity, which began in 597 BC, and 2) 600 years before Christ’s coming, which means they must have had ~365-day years.

To beat a dead horse (and for fun), let me also note this: the paper shows that even if Nephite months were only 15 days long, the odds of the month/day proximity phenomenon occuring would be 1 in 1,750 (see the “What if Events Were Far from Randomly Distributed?” section). If we assume a 260-day Mesoamerican calendar and change “15 days” to “13 days”, the figure only comes down to 1 in 665 (I just ran the numbers by slightly modifying the source code of the B.O.M Date Simulator, a link to which is provided in the paper). This figure uses the months found in the B.O.M’s dates and holds them constant, letting only the days vary. If we instead let the months vary as well (from 1 to 20), the odds of 8 dates having months and days that are so consistently close together by chance drops to 1 in 3,700.

mackay11 wrote:He's observed one "finding" in the 8-date set (that the month number and date number are always close) and then described this single (low probability) "finding" three different ways and then multiplied the probability to make the probability even lower.


Read the section in question (“Trend #1 – Month/Day Proximity”) and you’ll see that this is nothing close to what the analysis actually does. While it does quantify the strangeness of the month/day proximity phenomenon with three different metrics, it does NOT multiply any of them together (or any other such grade-school level shenanigans) as claimed. It soundly shows that the likelihood of the days of the B.O.M’s dates being so consistently close to their corresponding months (holding the months constant so that randomness of the months is irrelevant) by chance is 1 in 440,000. A retraction is in order from Mr. Mackay.

mackay11 wrote:[Apologists] can also argue that if there is any human influence on the dates selected then it could just as well be attributed to Mormon.


The paper addresses this notion with a few points, one of which is that not all of the dates can be attributed to Mormon since a couple of them were given by Amulek (Alma 56:42) and Helaman (Alma 10:6) (see the section “Objections & Alternative Explanations”).

In conclusion, many long hours of careful thought and tedious work went into this paper, so if someone carelessly skims through it and thinks they're equipped to refute it, they need to try actually reading it.

P.S. Why does this forum automatically change every instance of “B.O.M” (without periods) to “Book of Mormon”? That’s awfully obnoxious.
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Craig Paxton »

TruthIsReason wrote:It’s apparent that none of you have taken the time to fully read this paper since you’re debating things that are already firmly settled within it. The following is found in its "Premises" section:



Thank you for clarifying those points. I did in fact read every word...but the study uses big words like "plus and minus"...so I didn't do a very good job of defending the argument against the 260 day calendar. Thanks for doing so.

I first read of this particular Book of Mormon dating problem 10 years ago when I read Duane Anderson's book. I thought the problem was compelling then and even more so now. I was unaware of any of the apologetic responses until this study came out. Clearly this is a taletell sign of the fictional manmade origins of the Book of Mormon.

by the way Are you the study author? If not do you know who is?
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Bazooka
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Bazooka »

Craig, I'm very disappointed I haven't managed to get you back to Church with this one. I had such a good feeling about it too.... :biggrin:
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Bazooka wrote:Craig, I'm very disappointed I haven't managed to get you back to Church with this one. I had such a good feeling about it too.... :biggrin:



To quote Alma...I guess my heart is too hardened...

And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_TruthIsReason
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _TruthIsReason »

Craig Paxton wrote:Are you the study author? If not do you know who is?


Indeed, I am he. Thanks for sharing the paper here Craig. I know it was a long one, so I can't fault you for missing a thing or two.

Duwayne Anderson's and Lyndon Lamborn's experiments with the book's dates are definitely what inspired me to take a closer look at them. Their studies raised the question "Why would the author have a bias for low days?" My discovery (the first trend discussed in the paper) seems to answer that question by showing that the effect is merely a symptom of a much larger problem - the fact that the days mimic their corresponding months (to a degree that is astonishingly significant).
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Craig Paxton »

TruthIsReason wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:Are you the study author? If not do you know who is?


Indeed, I am he. Thanks for sharing the paper here Craig. I know it was a long one, so I can't fault you for missing a thing or two.

Duwayne Anderson's and Lyndon Lamborn's experiments with the book's dates are definitely what inspired me to take a closer look at them. Their studies raised the question "Why would the author have a bias for low days?" My discovery (the first trend discussed in the paper) seems to answer that question by showing that the effect is merely a symptom of a much larger problem - the fact that the days mimic their corresponding months (to a degree that is astonishingly significant).



Well I for one am impressed with your work. Taken as an isolated series of occurrences within the Book of Mormon, the significance in the lack of randomness of the dates found in the Book of Mormon could easily be dismissed. But once you become aware, through this study, of the improbability that these dates could have occurred randomly, it is yet another telltale sign of the man-made origins of the Book of Mormon. One would not expect to find this level of order in random events.

Since first reading about this man-made clue to the Book of Mormon origins some 10 years ago in Anderson’s book, I have often wondered why this phenomenon wasn’t more widely circulated.

In my opinion this work is just as important in unlocking the Book of Mormon origins as B.H Roberts book, Studies of the Book of Mormon, was in exposing the anachronisms found in the Book of Mormon was.

I am curious if you have encountered any apologetic reponses to your study yet or if it is merely being met with silence? Have you considered having it it published in Dialogue or Sunstone in order to get wider exposure?

Thanks again for putting this work out…I hope that it gets the exposure and scrutiny that it truly deserves…
Last edited by Guest on Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Bazooka
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _Bazooka »

TruthIsReason wrote:...the fact that the days mimic their corresponding months (to a degree that is astonishingly significant).


Are you saying that the day and the date are numerically the same or very similar?
For instance, a date in the third month would the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th day of that month?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_cognitiveharmony
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Re: Another Nail in the Book of Mormon's Coffin

Post by _cognitiveharmony »

There's a very good reason that papers like this have very little effect on TBMs...

This is how I picture BCSpace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s
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