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 Post subject: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:34 am 
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Ok I couldn't stay away...I'm a dog returning to my own vomit...I need to keep kicking that ____ dead horse...deal with it...



In John Larsen’s most recent podcast on Mormon Expression John and his guests dive into the question of Nephi’s ship and the industries Nephi needed to either initiate or invent to build a ship capable of transoceanic travel

Smelting Ovens /Blast Furnace

01. Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furnace since there was no coal for making coke.
02. Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace
03. Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools i.e. hammers, all’s, saws, sheep sheers etc.
Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

Dry Dock

01. Excavation of earth below water line
02. Gates that hold water back
03. Pumps to keep water out

This alone would take months if not years to complete.

Tanning

01. Skins needed for bellows
Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage
01. Forest with trees suitable for making a keel
02. Steam to bend the Keel

Resin/Tar

01. To make the ship water tight
02. How long would it take and how many trees would one require to collect enough sap to boil down into resin to water proof Nehi's ship?

Rope Production

01. Hemp
02. Flax
03. Animal skin or
04. Wool
05. And all the specialized tools to make rope

Where did any of these materials come from? Did they grow the hemp or flax? This would require seeds and time to grow

Sheep Farming

01. Transoceanic Viking ships had a 100 square meter sail. For every square meter of sail it required 2 sheep fleeces per meter of sail clothe. So a 100 square meter of sail would require a herd of at least 200 sheep. This excludes thread. Note that sheep can only be sheered once per year. So assuming Nephi had reserve sails in case of rough weather, he had to have multiple sails in storage which double or triples the number of sheep needed or extends the time necessary to manufacture multiple sails. If Nephi’s sail was larger…then it would add to these numbers accordingly.
02. Land available for sheep grazing

Did they move this herd of 200 + sheep from Jerusalem for 8 years through the desert just so they could make sails? If not where did these sheep come from?


Clothe-Weaving-Looms

01. Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sale.
The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented 200 years after Lehi)
01. Pullies
02. Ropes
03. Gears

Food Preservation Techniques

01. Pickling
02. Food drying etc.

Water Storage


01. 02. Assuming a total of 30 people in Lehi’s party 15 men and 15 woman this would equal
02. On average a humman male or female requires a minimum of 4 liters of water per day. Assuming a group of only 30 people this would require at least 120 liters of water storage per day. If I reduce this to an average need of 100 liters per day for a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat. There is 1,000 liters of water per square meter. 20,000 meters would barely fit in a 32’ x 64’ area. In a 30 meter ship that would take up 2/3’s of the boats holding area. This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking. So more than likely were this boat real, it would have to be larger than 30 meters in length. This reality would increase the size of the boat to allow for more storage capacity and increases all other factors and assumptions needed to make thisclaimed oceanic voyage possible such as increased sail size, increased number of sheep needed, more time to manufacture ship etc.

If a 30 meter long Viking ship required over 40,000 man work hours to build and this assumes that all of the needed building materials are on site, how long would have taken Nephi?

The FAIR Wiki claims that the boat was built in 1-2 years. Really?

Raw materials needed to build a boat:

01. A forest of trees…but not just any trees tree’s capable of turning into charcoal, trees large enough for both a keel and masts (Nephi was tied to a mast)
02. Iron Ore
03. Animal skins
04. A heard of at least 200-400 sheep
05. Access to hemp or flax
06. Pasture land for grassing
07. Fresh water
08. A heard of goats for their leather needs
09. Land for farming their seeds

One panelist makes an interesting observation…if today you had to go out and make a hammer…a single hammer … on your own…from raw materials…think of all that you would have to do to support the creation of that single hammer. Now turn that thought experiment to the building of an entire transoceanic ship. Yet we are to believe that Nephi and company was able to do build this ship and make the transoceanic voyage within a few short years + maintain food gathering needs and the other random necessities of maintaining life? Ummmm…OK

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Last edited by Craig Paxton on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:48 am 
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A very similar argument can be made about the claim to have built a temple like Solomon's shortly after arriving in the new world. See 2 Nephi 5:16

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:49 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
A very similar argument can be made about the claim to have built a temple like Solomon's shortly after arriving in the new world. See 2 Nephi 5:16


No it can't, you see, there were many people already living there, all Nephi had to do was borrow some tools...

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:57 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Ok I couldn't stay away...I'm a dog returning to my own vomit...I need to keep kicking that f*****g dead horse...deal with it...



In John Larsen’s most recent podcast on Mormon Expression John and his guests dive into the question of Nephi’s ship and the industries Nephi needed to either initiate or invent to build a ship capable of transoceanic travel

Smelting Ovens /Blast Furnace

01. Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke.
02. Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace
03. Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools i.e. hammers, all’s, saws, sheep sheers etc.
Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

Dry Dock

01. Excavation of earth below water line
02. Gates that hold water back
03. Pumps to keep water out

This alone would take months if not years to complete.

Tanning

01. Skins needed for bellows
Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage
01. Forest with trees suitable for making a keel
02. Steam to bend the Keel

Resin/Tar

01. To make the ship water tight
02. How long would it take and how many trees would one require to collect enough sap to boil down into resin to water proof Nehi's ship?

Rope Production

01. Hemp
02. Flax
03. Animal skin or
04. Wool
05. And all the specialized tools to make rope

Where did any of these materials come from? Did they grow the hemp or flax? This would require seeds and time to grow

Sheep Farming

01. Transoceanic Viking ships had a 100 square meter sail. For every square meter of sail it required 2 sheep fleeces per meter of sail clothe. So a 100 square meter of sail would require a herd of at least 200 sheep. This excludes thread. Note that sheep can only be sheered once per year. So assuming Nephi had reserve sails in case of rough weather, he had to have multiple sails in storage which double or triples the number of sheep needed or extends the time necessary to manufacture multiple sails. If Nephi’s sail was larger…then it would add to these numbers accordingly.
02. Land available for sheep grazing

Did they heard this herd of 200 + sheep from Jerusalam for 8 years through the desert just so they could make sails? If not where did these sheep come from?


Clothe-Weaving-Looms

01. Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sale.
The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented 200 years after Lehi)
01. Pullies
02. Ropes
03. Gears

Food Preservation Techniques

01. Pickling
02. Food drying etc.

Water Storage


01. 02. Assuming a total of 30 people in Lehi’s party 15 men and 15 woman this would equal
02. On average a humman male or female requires a minimum of 4 liters of water per day. Assuming a group of only 30 people this would require at least 120 liters of water storage per day. If I reduce this to an average need of 100 liters per day for a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat. There is 1,000 liters of water per square meter. 20,000 meters would barely fit in a 32’ x 64’ area. In a 30 meter ship that would take up 2/3’s of the boats holding area. This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking. So more than likely were this boat real, it would have to be larger than 30 meters in length. This reality would increase the size of the boat to allow for more storage capacity and increases all other factors and assumptions needed to make thisclaimed oceanic voyage possible such as increased sail size, increased number of sheep needed, more time to manufacture ship etc.

If a 30 meter long Viking ship required over 40,000 man work hours to build and this assumes that all of the needed building materials are on site, how long would have taken Nephi?

The FAIR Wiki claims that the boat was built in 1-2 years. Really?

Raw materials needed to build a boat:

01. A forest of trees…but not just any trees tree’s capable of turning into charcoal, trees large enough for both a keep and masts (Nephi was tied to a mast)
02. Iron Ore
03. Animal skins
04. A heard of at least 200-400 sheep
05. Access to hemp or flax
06. Pasture land for grassing
07. Fresh water
08. A heard of goats for their leather needs
09. Land for farming their seeds

One panelist makes an interesting observation…if today you had to go out and make a hammer…a single hammer … on your own…from raw materials…think of all that you would have to do to support the creation of that single hammer. Now turn that thought experiment to the building of an entire transoceanic ship. Yet we are to believe that Nephi and company was able to do build this ship and make the transoceanic voyage within a few short years + maintain food gathering needs and the other random necessities of maintaining life? Ummmm…OK


Craig,

Very interesting post.

I would be very interested in hearing some thoughts from our resident apologists, Tobin, Mak, bcspace and yahoo bot.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:58 am 
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I thought this podcast was pretty good.

Fence Sitter wrote:
A very similar argument can be made about the claim to have built a temple like Solomon's shortly after arriving in the new world. See 2 Nephi 5:16


With Solomons temple though you can argue that it was a really cheap poorly made imitation of the original (Not that I agree with that). With the boat if it is really cheap and poorly made you would sink 100 yards off the coast. A certain level of quality is absolutely required.


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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:09 am 
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Here's some interesting information on the process ancient people used in smelting Iron and the likely hood that Nephi was able to successfully do so in 600 BCE


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Smelting iron and steel is a real pain in the ass with medieval technology. There are three general categories of iron once it has been heated and made useful from ore. These are Cast Iron, Wrought Iron, and Steel. Burring wood, you can only get a temperature of 700 degrees which allows only the creation of Wrought Iron. If you use charcoal, you can get a temperature as high as 1200 degrees which allows for the melting of the Iron. When this happens it gets various amounts of Carbon in it from the smelting process. Here is the problem though; controlling how much Carbon gets in during medieval smelting is a practical impossibility. Sometimes it gets a small amount of Carbon and comes out as a sludge of Wrought Iron. Sometimes it gets just enough Carbon to come out as Steel. Other times it gets a lot of Carbon and comes out as Liquid Cast Iron that can only be poured immediately and can be worked no further after this casting.

Choosing to make Wrought Iron by only heating to about 700 degrees is a simple matter. Choosing to liquefy the Iron and make sure it gets a lot of carbon resulting in Cast Iron is also simple. Making steel, the balanced middle, is very hard.

Medieval smelters who desired to make steel did something very ingenious. Rather than having a special smelting furnace, they made three different types of smelting furnace. The first was the normal heat furnace that would burn charcoal or wood and would smelt iron. A second was an "oxygen-rich furnace" to try to decarburize or reduce the carbon content of cast iron. The third was a "carbon-rich furnace" to increase carbon levels in liquid Wrought Iron. Often the same Iron has to be jostled back and forth between the different smelting furnaces to balance the carbon content and produce steel.

In the long run what does this really mean for game mechanics. Making steel rather than Wrought Iron or Cast Iron requires a far more advanced facility with specialized furnaces, burns a lot more fuel per unit, is much slower to make and requires a more experienced smelter. Details will be described later





Basics

Producing useful metal requires five different things in this system. Here is a brief summary of each.

Ore- Metal ore is produces through mining and is discussed in that section. Generally it takes 2 units of ore to produce 1 unit of pure metal. Because the "grade" of metal found in rock is never as high as 100%, it often requires the mining of many units of rock to produce one unit of metal ore.

Smelters- Smelters are the workers who know how to use heat to smelt down ore. How much work a smelter can do is represented in "OSUs", or Ore Smelting Units.

Tools- Smelters must be provided with adequate tool to do their work effectively.

Facilities- For smelters to do their work, they need to have an adequate building or buildings. Pains should be made to make the building as fireproof as possible. Burning embers are common and a thatch roof or thresh floor will be set aflame in days.

Furnaces- The use of a furnace is absolutely essential to the smelting of ore into useful metal. A furnace can only do so much in a given time. How much metal can be smelted is represented in "FCUs", or Furnace Capacity Units.

Fuel- Smelting metals requires a lot of fuel to keep the furnaces burning. Fire wood, coal and charcoal are the fuels normally used. Some metals require better fuels for hotter flames.






Smelters
Smelters are skilled individuals who know how to apply heat and other techniques to produce usable metals from raw metal ore. From the very time metals were discovered, they are valued. Once people saw how they could be used, they became indispensable. Those who know how to work metals became highly regarded. In many primitive societies, smelters and smiths were seen as practitioners of magic and even as magical or divine beings themselves. Though some metals like lead melt down with some ease, balancing the carbon levels to make steel is a work requiring great skill. In our system, the most important thing to know about any smelter working is his rank. Rank represents level of skill and efficiency. Higher ranked smelters can smelt more metal in the same amount of time as well as smelt more difficult metals. How much work a smelter can do is represented in "OSUs" or Ore Smelting Units. The table to the right denotes how many OSUs smelters of various ranks generate.

Building and Outfitting a Smelter's Facility

Building - The first thing you will need is a building. Nothing disrupts a furnace that needs to stay at a specific temperature like changing weather. Just about any type of building will do, but you must have at least 40 square foot per smelter working there. Also an eye to fire safety is important.

Furnaces- You will need one or more smelting furnaces. Rules for constructing them can be found below. Furnaces provide "FCUs", or Furnace Capacity Units. You can only do so much smelting in a month as your furnace capacity will allow regardless of how many smelters you have working.

Tools- Lastly a Smelter will need Smelters Tools. These include several simple tools such as tongs, hooks, hammers and bellows. These can be made by a tool smith.

Crucible- Crucibles are the containers the ore is actually melted in. One Crucible will be needed for each Smelter. Crucibles can be made by Potters or Bellsmiths.





Smelting Furnaces

FCUs- A factor of serious consideration when smelting ore is how much capacity your furnaces can handle. This is represented in FCUs, or Furnace Capacity Units. A furnace produces 500 a month. Note that smelting furnaces are far less efficient in terms of volume and fuel consumption than pottery and mortar making kilns.

Standard Furnace- Most metals require only a standard furnace to smelt down metals within them. This furnace can burn wood, coal or charcoal as fuel. Operating a furnace consumes about 500 units of coal or charcoal (1000 of fire wood) per month of continuous use. A standard furnace can provide a maximum of 500 FCUs per month. Each FCU utilized requires 1 unit of coal or charcoal (or 2 fire wood). Constructing a standard furnace requires 50 units of masonry brick, clay brick or flagstone, 10 units of mortar and 20 hours of labor from a mason of at least adept rank.

Steel Furnaces- Unlike smelting other metals, smelting steel requires a standard furnace, an "oxygen-rich furnace" and a "carbon-rich furnace". This three furnace setup requires 150 units of masonry brick, clay brick or flagstone, 30 units of mortar and 100 hours of labor by masons of at least master rank and directed by an engineer of at least adept rank. When making steel all three furnaces must be active because the ore is switched back and forth between the three. A steel furnace can provide a maximum of 500 FCUs per month. Each FCU utilized requires 3 units of charcoal.

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Last edited by Craig Paxton on Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:10 am 
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Sammy Jankins wrote:
I thought this podcast was pretty good.

Fence Sitter wrote:
A very similar argument can be made about the claim to have built a temple like Solomon's shortly after arriving in the new world. See 2 Nephi 5:16


With Solomons temple though you can argue that it was a really cheap poorly made imitation of the original (Not that I agree with that). With the boat if it is really cheap and poorly made you would sink 100 yards off the coast. A certain level of quality is absolutely required.


Perhaps. Certainly we have seen apologist who take other claims in the Book of Mormon and try and twist what is said to make it reasonable. Millions does not equal millions, uninhabited did not really mean uninhabited, north isn't really north, and so on. So perhaps Nephi was grossly exaggerating when he compared his one room thatched wood hut temple as similar to Solomon's temple.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:58 am 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy

....on the topic of food, don't forget the scourge of the seas; Scurvy. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to carry fresh fruit and/or vegetables on a one year voyage.


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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Perhaps. Certainly we have seen apologist who take other claims in the Book of Mormon and try and twist what is said to make it reasonable. Millions does not equal millions, uninhabited did not really mean uninhabited, north isn't really north, and so on. So perhaps Nephi was grossly exaggerating when he compared his one room thatched wood hut temple as similar to Solomon's temple.


To be clear I do agree. The real author of the Book of Mormon probably didn't realize the logisticial problems of building Solomom's temple and it should be counted against the Book of Mormon.


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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship


You all need to learn to read something useful for a change and get the book and related video:

"Lehi in the Wilderness - 81 Evidences..."

It provides all the proof you need of both Lehi's family's journey in the Wilderness and building the Ship.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy

....on the topic of food, don't forget the scourge of the seas; Scurvy. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to carry fresh fruit and/or vegetables on a one year voyage.



I think on the topic of food and water, you might be able to make the argument that people tend to assume that they made the voyage non-stop, but it could be possible that they skirted along the coast lines for as long as they could and then hauled ass across the pacific to central america...unless they crossed over the Atlantic to the eastern coast of the USA and then that would be a different story.

Then again, maybe all of that was explained in the lost 166 pages

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:42 pm 
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I just finished listening to the podcast. Once again John and his panel knock it out of the park.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:12 am 
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You do realize the original North American inhabitants arrived without complex technologies, right?

I can just imagine the obstacles you would raise regarding the cobbling technologies involved in housing Mrs. Hubbard and her children or whether the Dow-Corning process was employed in the creation of Cinderella's slipper. Land O' Goshen!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:54 am 
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Moksha, they walked across a land bridge. No boat was needed.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:59 am 
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I must recommend a very scholarly, professionally written website for anyone really interested in fully understanding this subject.



http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:45 am 
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Tator wrote:
I must recommend a very scholarly, professionally written website for anyone really interested in fully understanding this subject.



http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/



Scholarly Indeed. In fact the linked site is so scholarly that I can't make heads or tails of it. It is way beyond my education. North is East and South is West. I can't imagine the amount of scholarly study it must take for one to come to these scolarly conclusions...these are very smart people who put this site together and very obviously very scolarly.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:00 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Water Storage

01. 02. Assuming a total of 30 people in Lehi’s party 15 men and 15 woman this would equal
02. On average a humman male or female requires a minimum of 4 liters of water per day. Assuming a group of only 30 people this would require at least 120 liters of water storage per day. If I reduce this to an average need of 100 liters per day for a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat. There is 1,000 liters of water per square meter. 20,000 meters would barely fit in a 32’ x 64’ area. In a 30 meter ship that would take up 2/3’s of the boats holding area. This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking. So more than likely were this boat real, it would have to be larger than 30 meters in length. This reality would increase the size of the boat to allow for more storage capacity and increases all other factors and assumptions needed to make thisclaimed oceanic voyage possible such as increased sail size, increased number of sheep needed, more time to manufacture ship etc.

If a 30 meter long Viking ship required over 40,000 man work hours to build and this assumes that all of the needed building materials are on site, how long would have taken Nephi?

The FAIR Wiki claims that the boat was built in 1-2 years. Really?

I think the simple answer here, Craig, is that Nephi and crew knew about the benefits of salt-water enemas, so there wasn't as much need for fresh water to keep them properly hydrated. Just picture in your mind Laman and Lemuel hydrating each other.

I'm enjoying your posts!

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:17 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Tator wrote:
I must recommend a very scholarly, professionally written website for anyone really interested in fully understanding this subject.



http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/



Scholarly Indeed. In fact the linked site is so scholarly that I can't make heads or tails of it. It is way beyond my education. North is East and South is West. I can't imagine the amount of scholarly study it must take for one to come to these scolarly conclusions...these are very smart people who put this site together and very obviously very scolarly.


If I am not mistaken, that is beastie's site where she takes the lgt apologists to task for north = west and horse claims. No?

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:30 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
[

If I am not mistaken, that is beastie's site where she takes the lgt apologists to task for north = west and horse claims. No?

That is Beastie's site.

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 Post subject: Re: Industries needed for Nephi to make a Transoceanic Ship
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:53 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Tator wrote:
I must recommend a very scholarly, professionally written website for anyone really interested in fully understanding this subject.



http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/



Scholarly Indeed. In fact the linked site is so scholarly that I can't make heads or tails of it. It is way beyond my education. North is East and South is West. I can't imagine the amount of scholarly study it must take for one to come to these scolarly conclusions...these are very smart people who put this site together and very obviously very scolarly.


....you didn't read the material on the site, did you?


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