Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain Women

[_Aristotle Smith]

There have been historical cases in which members of the central Church leadership have apparently pressured local lay leaders to discipline congregants in a particular way, but that is against official Church policy and I’ve seen no evidence that anything of the sort was at play here. So apparently what we have in this case are local, volunteer members of the Church policing the boundaries of their shared congregation—and yet their decision does not just remove Kelly from that particular congregation, but from the Church as a whole

How anyone can see three near simultaneous church courts against three high profile members and not conclude some kind of direction from above is beyond me. After I read that paragraph I pictured someone in Cambridge, MA saying, "But like my daddy, I tool have read a few books, and I'm not a dodo either."

[_Mayan Elephant]

i cannot hear divinity school without picturing al gore. didn't he drop out of divinity school and at least one other school? i recall him going to divinity school to find his own personal jesus.

[_just me]

i cannot hear divinity school without picturing al gore. didn't he drop out of divinity school and at least one other school? i recall him going to divinity school to find his own personal jesus.

And now that "Personal Jesus" song is in my head.

[_Mayan Elephant]

i cannot hear divinity school without picturing al gore. didn't he drop out of divinity school and at least one other school? i recall him going to divinity school to find his own personal jesus.

And now that "Personal Jesus" song is in my head.

gotta love those johnny cash covers of depeche mode and resnor.

[_alscai]

gotta love those johnny cash covers of depeche mode and resnor.

Ha ha, nice!

[_Shiloh]

Really, though - a Divinity School in the west in the 21st Century?

DrW,

May I suggest auditing a class at HDS on Hebrew Bible interpretation?

You do realize, of course, that protestant div schools have been THE hotbed for critical Biblical research for nearly 2 centuries. That is to say nothing of the philosophy and science coming out of Catholic monastic orders since the middle ages.

Also, that most, if not all, of the biblical research marshaled as evidence against Judaism and Christianity by your heroes Larry "Swinger" Krause, Michael "Let Me Pour You Some More Wine" Shermer, and Richard "Muslima" Dawkins, has its genesis in div schools.

If you think div schools are like anything you have described above, you really need to get out more.

Shiloh

[_KevinSim]

A Pew survey conducted last October found that 90 percent of LDS women oppose the ordination of women (compared to 84 percent of LDS men).

Perhaps because the supporters get kicked out (or remove themselves) from the sampled population. The ninety percent refers to active members. Many of the female Mormons who support female ordination have cast their votes not in a Pew research poll, but with their feet. The majority of Mormons do not go to church regularly. They are casting votes that don't show up in the Pew poll.

I work as a ward missionary in a ward in Springville, Utah. There aren't a lot of non-Mormons in our ward, so that calling has me doing a lot with inactive members, the LDS that you say have voted "with their feet." My experience has been that those people don't have sharply different beliefs than active members have; on the contrary, their beliefs line up quite well with the beliefs of active members; their reasons for not attending aren't connected at all with different beliefs. They've just gotten out of the habit of coming to church, and have gotten so entrenched in a non-church-going lifestyle that the inertia keeps them there.

[_DarkHelmet]

I work as a ward missionary in a ward in Springville, Utah. There aren't a lot of non-Mormons in our ward, so that calling has me doing a lot with inactive members, the LDS that you say have voted "with their feet." My experience has been that those people don't have sharply different beliefs than active members have; on the contrary, their beliefs line up quite well with the beliefs of active members; their reasons for not attending aren't connected at all with different beliefs. They've just gotten out of the habit of coming to church, and have gotten so entrenched in a non-church-going lifestyle that the inertia keeps them there.

That could be. I've also known inactives who say whatever they need to say to get the ward missionary out of the house. They don't want to get into a debate over doctrine. So they say stuff like "I will try to get to church next week" and hope that's enough to get them to leave.

[_KevinSim]

I work as a ward missionary in a ward in Springville, Utah. There aren't a lot of non-Mormons in our ward, so that calling has me doing a lot with inactive members, the LDS that you say have voted "with their feet." My experience has been that those people don't have sharply different beliefs than active members have; on the contrary, their beliefs line up quite well with the beliefs of active members; their reasons for not attending aren't connected at all with different beliefs. They've just gotten out of the habit of coming to church, and have gotten so entrenched in a non-church-going lifestyle that the inertia keeps them there.

That could be. I've also known inactives who say whatever they need to say to get the ward missionary out of the house. They don't want to get into a debate over doctrine. So they say stuff like "I will try to get to church next week" and hope that's enough to get them to leave.

DarkHelmet, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[_kairos]

if there is such a large 90% opinion that Mormon women oppose women's ordination or like the system the way it is, why would local or even SLC be worried that kate was making a difference since the poll shows otherwise- thus a heavy handed excom seemed way inappropriate unless directed by the SLC- if we had the emails or the phonecons, i think it would be clear that SLC has its hands dirty-better destroy those hard drives guys-at some point a whistle blower is bound to emerge and "all " will lost.


in the meantime, i can see COB combing through john dehlin's friends list- it is quite long and extensive- containing some names you would know as would the church investigators eg johanna brooks, jan reiss? etc
or maybe they have looked at john's friends' list and figured there are probably thousands of sympatizers not even listed resulting in the current plan to tread softly.

just sayin
k