Atheists have no justification for morality

[_Gadianton]

Beastie, I didn't say I think life is meaningless. There's a sense in which it is, objectively, but subjectively and in the short term, it clearly isn't.

ok, if you'd said that before I'd just agree with it, though I don't consider it much of a win, but, statements like this:

I want things that I can only have while alive.

It has always seemed clear to me that when theists in the many discussions where this has come up over the years, including the apologist you are defending, mean when they say that life is meaningless without a personal eternity, that this meaninglessness is most importantly subjective also and very much in the here and now. The context of these discussions has always been over the despair that a believer would feel when faced with the prospect of no afterlife or "God".

[_Kent]

Gadianton, I had already said that this life has meaning from our near-term point of view. Long thread, I know. I don't know what the theists you've talked with think, of course, only what some theists think, and what I think.

[_palerobber]

I remember my World Religion's student manual at BYU distinctly considered Nirvana to "seem like" outer darkness to a Latter-day Saint. Think about Brahman Atman, where the individual loses his identity in the vastness of the sea. What a horrible thing for a self-centered, consumption maximizing Latter-Day Saint living on the East Side to lose. Yet, billions equipped with a survival instinct seek after Nirvana. I'm not saying they are right, I'm just saying that the LDS and right-wing egocentric consumerism isn't the rule.

that's funny. i also recall learning about Brahman Atman in a BYU World Religions class but i didn't remember the part about comparing it to Outer Darkness (!). though the concept didn't impress me much at the time, as i matured after finishing school i often thought back on Brahman Atman and felt it was the best of all possible heavens. is there also a Christian version of this? do some sects take "becoming one with God" to mean a loss of identity?

[_palerobber]

The meaning, for that person, existed as long as they did. They had a life full of meaning. Not all of their aims will eventually be a achieved, of course, nor will they be alive to see all of their aims achieved even if they are, but this doesn't mean their life was "meaningless" on the long-view. It means their life had some meaning while they had life. That they died doesn't erase the past anymore than an ice cube melting means the ice cube never existed at all.

I agree with this. Think about raising your kids, unlike a marriage where one envisions the same experiences repeated throughout eternity of two eternally young people in love slow dancing to Alphaville every night, you only get to raise your kids once in the here and now. Sure, you might have a relationship with them forever as adults, but the wondrous joys of rearing the children that you have will be lost, never to happen again. Never will you have father and nine-year-old Johnny playing catch again. So it must have all been meaningless.

i think Kent's fear of death is perhaps best explained by his gut level feeling that he doesn't want to perish like a fading horse, coupled with his growing realization that it's so hard to get old without a cause. although youth is like diamonds in the sun (and diamonds are forever), Kent can see that in a finite lifetime there will necessarily be so many adventures couldn't happen today, so many songs he forgot to play, etc.

[_Maksutov]

In the latest installment of the Deseret News pandering to it's demographic...

Defending the Faith: Is morality mere illusion?

On what objective grounds, if any, can someone holding this view say that failure to help a child or fight Third World hunger is “wrong”? On what basis, even, can such a person condemn murder, rape or child abuse? If somebody else endorses them, on what basis can a Dawkins disagree? The Nazis regarded killing Jews and Gypsies and enslaving Slavs as good things. Are these only matters of opinion?

I can't wait for them to publish the atheist response to this.

And yet an atheist is less likely to be in a prison for a crime of fraud or violence than a Christian. Hmmmm.

[_Gadianton]

that's funny. i also recall learning about Brahman Atman in a BYU World Religions class but i didn't remember the part about comparing it to Outer Darkness (!). though the concept didn't impress me much at the time, as i matured after finishing school i often thought back on Brahman Atman and felt it was the best of all possible heavens. is there also a Christian version of this? do some sects take "becoming one with God" to mean a loss of identity?

Well, it was right there in the textbook, in black and white. I believe the language was that it "seems like" that from an LDS perspective. My teacher didn't teach it that way, he was inclusive to the point of irritation for some students. I don't know if there is a Christian version of this, I've never heard anything like it from Christians (Christians today). Some kind of liberal pseudo-Christianity like Unitarianism might have something that comes close, anything with Marxist inspiration might as it's also holistic.

[_palerobber]

i wasn't doubting you -- i just didn't remember that.

by the way, did you take it from Keller? as i recall, his was the only worthwhile religion class i took at BYU.

[_Gadianton]

Wow, it was so long ago, it's hard to remember. He doesn't look familiar but he might be older now so that's why I don't recognize him. Well, see if this sounds familiar, I remember him saying that he was a converted minister(?) or in study for minister. I remember him distinctly saying he didn't care about the Book of Mormon because he already knew about Jesus. Most distinctive is that, when teaching about non-Christian religions where the prophet claimed to have seen 'God', or whoever, he would affirm the experience actually happened, and that the person really was a real prophet. So if that's a hit, it's probably him, because I doubt there are two in the department who think that way.

I wasn't meaning to be condescending by saying "black and white", just affirming that it was (surprisingly) in the textbook, because it came off as kind of a cheap shot, even though I don't think it was intended that way. In fact, the name Keller sounds familiar, maybe he co-authored that book even.

[_palerobber]

yeah, that's gotta be Keller you're talking about -- used to be an ordained protestant minister, very universalist outlook (for a Mormon). he also had an interest in Zen meditation, and he used to have a mushtache. definitely one of a kind in a religion dept full of glorified high school seminary teachers trying to dress and speak like GA's.