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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am 
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cognitiveharmony wrote:
This is awesome. In my mind this is an indictment. Most TBM's wouldn't even give this a second thought. It would just be another attack.
And they would be right. This analysis suffers from selection bias (as does the linked content) and is a big no-no in statistical analysis. The problem is the authors aren't comparing apples and apples (i.e. birthdays), as they do in their examples. Instead, they immediately diverge from that into comparing a number of different events and then claim they are all apples. It only takes a moment to see their mistake and they should be embarrassed to publish garbage like that.

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Last edited by Tobin on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:17 am 
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Looking at that pattern of numbers, my question is three of those dates came from month 1. I assume it's something like in one verse they say month 1, day 1. Then next verse it's the next day and they say month 1, day 2. like that? Probably also the same for the seventh month? If so, you only have five dates. And you can toss the 1,1 because it's clearly not a random date. So you have four dates?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:20 am 
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The Book of Mormon records days of the month only eight times.
Seven of them are in the Book of Alma
Two are about the same event day one and day two of the month.

The word DAY occurs over 500 times

The random dating theory proving the Book of Mormon to be made up is in no way substantial and cannot even count for evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:50 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
The battles that leave all dead in the Book of Mormon are ridiculous. Million man armies would have been logistically impossible, and even more absurd is they kill each other at a roughly 1:1 ratio until 1 man from each side is left standing, and they happen to be the main characters. It's an action movie cliché. But even in the movies not everyone is killed in battle. Filmmakers know the reality of war. Typically the battle is won when one side suffers heavier losses than the other side and the remaining soldiers see they are now heavily outnumbered and they retreat, or they are taken as prisoners of war, or executed. I can only assume as your armies get ridiculously large, the odds of a battle that kills everyone on both sides with neither side retreating is zero.


The fairy tale war stories of the Book of Mormon insult the intelligence of every decent minded person who lives by truth rather than faith. The Book of Mormon is an insult to us all and the LDS church shouldn't be peddling this crap as history. What are the odds that the war ends with the two leaders battling it out? Hell, those odds seem worse than winning the lottery. The LDS church is a bad bet, folks!

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:56 am 
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Just another one that is holding my interest.

Both the Book of Mormon (11 times) and Wars (13 times) uses ‘lion’ figuratively

Here are some examples:

Quote:
From the Book of Mormon:


3 Nephi 21:12
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

3 Nephi 20:16
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

2 Nephi 15:28-29
28 Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion.
29 They shall roar like young lions; yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry away safe, and none shall deliver.

Mosiah 20:10
10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.

Alma 14:29
29 Now the people having heard a great noise came running together by multitudes to know the cause of it; and when they saw Alma and Amulek coming forth out of the prison, and the walls thereof had fallen to the earth, they were struck with great fear, and fled from the presence of Alma and Amulek even as a goat fleeth with her young from two lions; and thus they did flee from the presence of Alma and Amulek.

Mormon 5:24
24 Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.


Quote:
From Wars:

21:7 But the wickedness of the kingdom of Great Britain, and the cruelty of the princes thereof, towards the peaceable inhabitants of the land of Columbia, may be likened unto the fierce lion, when he putteth his paw upon the innocent lamb to devour him.

90:3 They hid themselves in the wilderness; they couched down as a lion; and as a young lion, they watched for their prey’.

164:22 Thus again was the mighty lion humbled before the eagle

173:11 But the army of Columbia rushed upon them with the fierceness of lions.

295:8 The fierceness of their coming was as the coming of a thousand untamed lions, which move majestically over the sandy deserts of Arabia

295:10 And it was about the rising of the sun, when the battering rams of the king began to utter their noises; and the sound thereof was terrible as the roaring of lions, or the voice of many thunders.

304: …yea, they thanked him that he had strengthened their arms, and delivered them from the lion’s paw.



That they both use 'lion' isn't particularly strange since the bible is full of figurative language around the subject.
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period.
So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either. (Or am I wrong?)

It does make sense if Joseph was being influenced by the Bible and Wars. Interestingly, Joseph doesn’t use ‘eagle’ (as does Hunt and the Bible) which wouldn’t have been anachronistic in a Book of Mormon setting.

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Last edited by Mary on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:57 am 
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Mary wrote:
That they both use 'lion' isn't particularly strange since the bible is full of figurative language around the subject.
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period.
So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either. (Or am I wrong?)

It does make sense if Joseph was being influenced by the Bible and Wars. Interestingly, Joseph doesn’t use ‘eagle’ (as does Hunt) which wouldn’t have been anachronistic in a Book of Mormon setting.


We do have "mountain lions" in the Americas, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:03 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Nevo wrote:
This is an excellent post, Kish.


Thank you, Nevo.

I apologize for being abrasive in this thread.


Must you be so kind and polite, Kish? It's your biggest weakness. Go for the throat and don't be afraid to slash the Book of Mormon -- show no mercy or pity. That book is a lie. The Mormon god drags his heals. Does he get his way? No, the temple was not built even though Jehovah told Joe to tell the church it was a commandment to build it, they failed. The lies of the Mormon religion will not go unpunished.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:04 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Mary wrote:
That they both use 'lion' isn't particularly strange since the bible is full of figurative language around the subject.
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period.
So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either. (Or am I wrong?)

It does make sense if Joseph was being influenced by the Bible and Wars. Interestingly, Joseph doesn’t use ‘eagle’ (as does Hunt) which wouldn’t have been anachronistic in a Book of Mormon setting.


We do have "mountain lions" in the Americas, though.


Yeah, but these are more closely related to Pumas, Cheetahs etc. The 'lion' was the fiercest, the king so to speak, pumas, cougars aren't in the same league?
It may be nothing, just something that struck me.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:09 am 
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Mary wrote:
Yeah, but these are more closely related to Pumas, Cheetahs etc. The 'lion' was the fiercest, the king so to speak, pumas, cougars aren't in the same league?
It may be nothing, just something that struck me.


In a North American context, mountain lions are pretty much it, so they would be the fiercest, the king, as you put it.

Sorry, was just trying to think like an apologist for a minute.

Perhaps the eagle is left out because the writer thought it would be too obvious a reference to the modern USA.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:25 am 
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Mary wrote:
That they both use 'lion' isn't particularly strange since the bible is full of figurative language around the subject.
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period.
So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either. (Or am I wrong?)

It does make sense if Joseph was being influenced by the Bible and Wars. Interestingly, Joseph doesn’t use ‘eagle’ (as does Hunt and the Bible) which wouldn’t have been anachronistic in a Book of Mormon setting.


Wow, just wow! Lions, elephants, 2000 warriors, and the list goes on and on.

It's an indictment! What are the odds that the Book of Mormon could be a true history based on all the facts that point to fraud, ie., plagiarism, KJV errors, fairytales, anachronisms, etc?

I think this pretty much sums it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXEs2JFe-Y

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:30 am 
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In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

  • Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
  • This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
  • This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
  • Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
  • If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
  • The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
  • I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:31 am 
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I don't have time to go through all of the comments, but I just wanted to point out that a quick google books search shows that the language used in the BofM is far more common than those pushing the Late War thesis seem to realize.

For example: "curious workmanship."

"fine workmanship"

"all manner of cattle"

The same can pretty much done with every "SMOKING GUN!" phrase.

More telling than the occasional shared common phrases between the BofM and LW is how little so much of the regular language of the LW appears in the BofM. If Joseph Smith really pulled from the LW, we would certainly expect to see much more of LW's themes and language to appear in the BofM. Sheesh, most of the LW involves naval battle--none of which occurs in the BofM. Do search of "fleet" "ship" and "ships" in LW. Those terms are spread throughout the whole book, but "fleet" never appears in the BofM and "ship/ships/shipping" only occurs twice outside of Nephi (Alma 63 and Helaman 3)

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Last edited by the narrator on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:36 am 
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Better yet, do a search in LW for "score."

Then do a search in the BofM.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:41 am 
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Phaedrus Ut wrote:
In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

  • Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
  • This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
  • This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
  • Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
  • If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
  • The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
  • I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus


As I've said before in this thread, it all comes down to your base assumptions here. Those that are swayed by the view that Joseph Smith made it all up and more importantly, there were no Gold Plates, are going to leap at any parallels since they are keen on evidence that support their assumption that Joseph Smith made it all up and copied from elsewhere. However, as I pointed out, if you believe that there really were Gold Plates that were translated, finding parallels and other writing similar to the period in which the Book of Mormon was translated is not likely to hold much weight with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:48 am 
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Tobin wrote:
As I've said before in this thread, it all comes down to your base assumptions here. Those that are swayed by the view that Joseph Smith made it all up and more importantly, there were no Gold Plates, are going to leap at any parallels since they are keen on evidence that support their assumption that Joseph Smith made it all up and copied from elsewhere. However, as I pointed out, if you believe that there really were Gold Plates that were translated, finding parallels and other writing similar to the period in which the Book of Mormon was translated is not likely to hold much weight with you.


If your world view includes angels that deliver golden plates with magic rocks that translate ancient Egyptian then theoretically anything is possible. If your world view doesn't include such magical thinking then you logically assume non-supernatural methods of composition.


Phaedrus


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:59 am 
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Mary wrote:
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period. So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either.

Hi Mary,

You may already be aware of this, but three of your references from the Book of Mormon are quoting or paraphrasing Micah 5:8 (3 Ne. 20:16; 21:12; and Morm. 5:24) and a fourth is quoting Isaiah 5:29 (2 Ne.15:29).

That leaves two "anachronistic" references. And Runtu already anticipated the apologetic response. Brant Gardner comments as follows, regarding Mosiah 20:10: "What we probably have in this case is Joseph substituting a known animal (out of place) for an animal which was also a big cat. In other words, the underlying text would have been 'jaguar' but the translation would be 'lion.'"

The KJV translators did exactly the same sort of thing. See Isaiah 34:13, for example:

"And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls."

The NRSV provides a more accurate translation:

"Thorns shall grow over its strongholds, nettles and thistles in its fortresses. It shall be the haunt of jackals, an abode for ostriches."


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Phaedrus Ut wrote:
In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

  • Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
  • This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
  • This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
  • Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
  • If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
  • The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
  • I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus


All of the above have been expressed elsewhere. That some people are seeing this as a major attack tells me more about those people than it does about either the Hunt book or the Book of Mormon.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Last edited by Hasa Diga Eebowai on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:21 pm 
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the narrator wrote:
I don't have time to go through all of the comments, but I just wanted to point out that a quick google books search shows that the language used in the BofM is far more common than those pushing the Late War thesis seem to realize.


I don't doubt that, but I think the "smoking gun" rhetoric is that Late War appears to be among the influences (as opposed to the primary influnence) on the Book or Mormon.

It's more than just occasional shared common phrases. Consider what I've posted elsewhere in this thread (that no one seems to have noticed so maybe I'm making something out of nothing) comparing a portion of Alma 49 to Late War Chapter XXIX.

In both cases, in the space of a few verses, the commonalities are (1) a host of bad guys comes to war against the (2) good guys in a fort. The good guys are (3) prepared, the good guys (4) slaughter the bad guys, whose bodies (5) fill up the ditch around the fort, and the surviving bad guys (6) flee into the forest/wilderness.

See Alma 49:20-25 and Late War Chapter XXIX verses 20-23.

If Joseph Smith didn't pull from Late War, would you expect to see similarities such as this? This is more than just common phrases. This is a common story.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:26 pm 
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the narrator wrote:
If Joseph Smith really pulled from the LW, we would certainly expect to see much more of LW's themes and language to appear in the BofM. Sheesh, most of the LW involves naval battle--none of which occurs in the BofM. Do search of "fleet" "ship" and "ships" in LW. Those terms are spread throughout the whole book, but "fleet" never appears in the BofM and "ship/ships/shipping" only occurs twice outside of Nephi (Alma 63 and Helaman 3)


My point has been that we do see LW's themes and language in the Book of Mormon. The language of the KJV was chosen deliberately, and the main theme of both books is two civilizations at war, one righteous and the other wicked. What I find interesting is the stylistic choices made to describe people and battles. They are awfully similar, IMO.

It would be simple to say that the Book of Mormon talks about ancient America and the LW talks about naval battles. But that oversimplifies things.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Tim the Enchanter wrote:
the narrator wrote:
I don't have time to go through all of the comments, but I just wanted to point out that a quick google books search shows that the language used in the BofM is far more common than those pushing the Late War thesis seem to realize.


I don't doubt that, but I think the "smoking gun" rhetoric is that Late War appears to be among the influences (as opposed to the primary influnence) on the Book or Mormon.

It's more than just occasional shared common phrases. Consider what I've posted elsewhere in this thread (that no one seems to have noticed so maybe I'm making something out of nothing) comparing a portion of Alma 49 to Late War Chapter XXIX.

In both cases, in the space of a few verses, the commonalities are (1) a host of bad guys comes to war against the (2) good guys in a fort. The good guys are (3) prepared, the good guys (4) slaughter the bad guys, whose bodies (5) fill up the ditch around the fort, and the surviving bad guys (6) flee into the forest/wilderness.

See Alma 49:20-25 and Late War Chapter XXIX verses 20-23.

If Joseph Smith didn't pull from Late War, would you expect to see similarities such as this? This is more than just common phrases. This is a common story.


Kind of like when both Moroni and Paul pray to God to have a weakness removed. And both times, God speaks to them. And both times the answer is no. And both times God uses the word strength and weakness. And both times God uses the phrase "grace is sufficient". (the only two times it appears that phrase appears in scripture) And both accounts use the relatively rare word "fool" (only appears five other times in the Book of Mormon).

This is not common language being lifted. This is repeating the same story.


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