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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Someone please read Chapter XX, verses 11-16 and tell me if I'm the only one seeing an amazing coincidence.


not enough to support a charge of plagiarism, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:01 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Just over 1,100 views in just over three hours.

That sound you hear is breaking shelves.

The acrid odor is sweating apologists.


Shades needs to pin this thread right away. Everything has changed. This is perhaps the greatest discovery since the lost papyrus were rediscovered in the 1960's. This is a new dawn, folks. Mormonism is in serious, serious, trouble.

Isn't it wonderful? :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:03 pm 
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I don't believe what we are looking at is plagiarism. It is generic imitation. Joseph Smith seems to have become aware, most likely through Hunt, of this quasi-biblical prose epic genre and run with it for his own prose epic on Hebrews in Ancient America. There are simply too many echoes of Hunt's work in Smith's for this to be mere coincidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:



Kish, if that's the Mopologists' official reponse to your post, then on behalf of Mormons I humbly submit that we are screwed in regard to the Book of Mormon being historical.

I've only skimmed this book, and so far I've found numerous terms that are completely "unique" to the Book of Mormon. Hard to explain, at the very least.

I hope Cassius goes into full overdrive and reviews these books ASAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:08 pm 
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DrW wrote:


That sound you hear is breaking shelves.



At least the pathway will be clear--there no longer being a need to crawl around the Book of Mormon to leave the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I don't believe what we are looking at is plagiarism. It is generic imitation. Joseph Smith seems to have become aware, most likely through Hunt, of this quasi-biblical prose epic genre and run with it for his own prose epic on Hebrews in Ancient America. There are simply too many echoes of Hunt's work in Smith's for this to be mere coincidence.


Exactly. "Plagiarism" was never really the point, though many people have misguidedly thrown that phrase around.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Blixa wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
I don't believe what we are looking at is plagiarism. It is generic imitation. Joseph Smith seems to have become aware, most likely through Hunt, of this quasi-biblical prose epic genre and run with it for his own prose epic on Hebrews in Ancient America. There are simply too many echoes of Hunt's work in Smith's for this to be mere coincidence.


Exactly. "Plagiarism" was never really the point, though many people have misguidedly thrown that phrase around.


Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.

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Last edited by Everybody Wang Chung on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I don't believe what we are looking at is plagiarism. It is generic imitation. Joseph Smith seems to have become aware, most likely through Hunt, of this quasi-biblical prose epic genre and run with it for his own prose epic on Hebrews in Ancient America. There are simply too many echoes of Hunt's work in Smith's for this to be mere coincidence.


I tend to agree. However, these works need to be combed over to make sure there isn't a silver bullet within the silver bullet. All it could take is one word. Much like the blood on the clothes of whats-his-name in the Book of Mormon which gave himself away as the assassin.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling warrior", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.


Was "stripling" used directly next to "warrior"?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:17 pm 
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mms wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.


Was "stripling" used directly next to "warrior"?


Good catch. I need to slow down. Here's the quote I was referring to:

32. About this time, a stripling from the south, with his weapon of war in his hand.

Chapter XIX, verse 32

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling warrior", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.


If it's just a word or short phrase, then barely bordering---and other than "stripling warrior," I imagine one could find the other phrases elsewhere, too. Nothing in the text ever sounded completely outside of 19thC vernacular, to my ears....

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling warrior", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.


Each point adds up and the odds must be weighed. There is a cumulative effect that needs to be taken into consideration. It's clear to me where Joe Smith got his ideas and as Dr. Scratch pointed out, all Joe had to do was cut and paste. Presto!

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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vessr wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Someone please read Chapter XX, verses 11-16 and tell me if I'm the only one seeing an amazing coincidence.


not enough to support a charge of plagiarism, in my opinion.


But, taken as a whole, one could certainly say that, with the Late War, there are now known contemporary sources for language, style and religious and political themes in the Book of Mormon to go along with known contemporary sources for character and place names, and the source of the Anthon Caracters (purported examples of Reformed Egyptian).

This, taken together with JSJr.'s track record regarding the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook Plates and the Greek Psalter, all sort of leaves him batting pretty much zero.

As Paul said upthread (sort of): Weight of Evidence (Baby).

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Last edited by DrW on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Good catch. I need to slow down. Here's the quote I was referring to:

32. About this time, a stripling from the south, with his weapon of war in his hand.

Chapter XIX, verse 32


Pretty easy to come up with stripling warrior from that, and then mix it with the 2000 that went to battle. Wow. Seriously, this seems to be an amazing find.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:25 pm 
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This expression of outrage on behalf of virtue violated is pretty interesting:

Quote:
38. Instead of protecting the tender women, the fairest work of God, the life of the world; behold! what hast thou done?

39. See! the shrieking matron cast herself into the waters that she may escape brutal violence: but all in vain; her garments are torn from her; she becomes prey to thy savage lust.

40. Not she alone, but her daughter, and her fair sisters, have fallen into thy unhallowed hands, and been defiled!

41. Oh, Britain! the voice of violated chastity riseth up against thee; the mark of the beast is indelibly printed in thy forehead:


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:35 pm 
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You guys are hilarious. Where did all the critical thinkers on the board go?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling warrior", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagarism.


Each point adds up and the odds must be weighed. There is a cumulative effect that needs to be taken into consideration. It's clear to me where Joe Smith got his ideas and as Dr. Scratch pointed out, all Joe had to do was cut and paste. Presto!

Paul O


What am i missing...unless something more sufaces...I don't see any smoking gun... If the plagiarism from the bible, twisting Pauls words into those of Alma's and Mormon arn't a smoking gun. How can this be?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Nevo wrote:
You guys are hilarious. Where did all the critical thinkers on the board go?


It's just further evidence that the Book of Mormon has a 19th century origin. It fairly clear looking at other sources like Voth that the Book of Mormon story has the same kind of sources. The obvious apologetic will be for loose translation with Joseph just putting it all in his own words. Too bad loose translation just doesn't really fit the facts. We also KNOW Joseph did not get the Book of Abraham right. Should I pull a Shulem on you?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:46 pm 
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I think there are probably two things to focus on when considering similarities with the Book of Mormon (Given that the timescale and availability aren't in dispute).

1. General themes of events or circumstance.
2. Specific phrases that were seemingly unique to the Book of Mormon.

This type of 'scientific' comparison would give some degree of measure of probability of Joseph using it as an inspiration.
I assume somebody with the appropriate credentials (literary analytical skills) will be taking this book and placing it under scrutiny?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Holy Viagara Falls. Has it been more than four hours yet. Kish you better go see a physician. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyone who ever created a thing or two knows you can't go from nothing to something. I say the Lord provided Joseph Smith examples of Ancient Writing styles in his day to simmer on the back burner a bit lest he stumble over much when confronted with the language God was soon to provide him written on the stone in the hat.

I think the symphony of The Book of Mormon far exceeds the weak tones of these tomes.

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