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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:49 pm 
Son of Perdition
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Gadianton wrote:
Now, there was a certain hypocrite, whose name was Eligah, and he was a false prophet of the east, and he led astray those of little understanding; morever, he was an hireling, and preached for the sake of filthy lucre.

And he rose up and called himself a preacher of the gospel, and his words were smooth, and the people marvelled at him;

But he profaned the temple of the Lord, and strove to lead his disciplies into the wrong way.


Kishyboy just posted that 1 second ago. What's going on here?

:eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
er...I kid you not, I posted the above before seeing Kish's post, which was made in the same minute.

Either I am Kish's sock, or the case is closed.

We have the smoking gun.


Jesus H. Christ!

This place rocks!!!

I'm going to take a bath.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:55 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Kishkumen,

Your link opened to the first chapter of the book, which you indicated you had read.

Have you turned back to and read the Preface? If so, what do you think about it?

If you have not done so yet, your stunning experience may not yet be complete.

Not hard to imagine the impact the Preface would have on someone in Joseph Smith's position. It seems to be both an invitation and an instruction book on writing history in a traditional, proper and, yes, even biblical manner and style.


Thanks for the tip, DrW. You are correct. One can readily see how a young Joseph Smith could have been influenced by this work.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:14 pm 
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13. And their weapons of war were of curious workmanship

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
13. And their weapons of war were of curious workmanship


Which chapter, Everybody Wang Chung?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
13. And their weapons of war were of curious workmanship


Which chapter, Everybody Wang Chung?


Sorry, Kish. Chapter XIX

Also, Chapter XVIII, verse 20, "curious devices"

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
13. And their weapons of war were of curious workmanship


I was just about to type that. That's a very interesting phrase. I don't think it is in the bible? A quick google search reveals almost exclusively LDS links?

This is kind of crazy. It literally sounds like the sealed portion describing the wars and dealings of men in the regions of upper Canada as seen in a vision by the prophet Mormon.

Has anyone already done a thorough comparison of this yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:23 pm 
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32. About this time, a stripling from the south, with his weapon of war in his hand.

Chapter XIX, verse 32

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Even if one rejects the "Late War" as the source, it's still devastating. I'm Googling some of the "curious" phrases from the book, and hits not only come up from the Book of Mormon, but the MI, which appears to be offline at the moment. After this discovery, they may wish to leave it that way.

For instance, take 38, "when james heard with words of the council, his heart melted as wax before the fire"

However I Googled it, this hit came up from the MI:

"Other ritual simile curses feature the melting of wax... "

The context being to show the "ancient imagery".

The point being, "Late War" was written "in the ancient style" in modern times, and I'll be damned if it doesn't pass every "ancient imagery" smell test that the Book of Mormon passes.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Here is another book that Chris Johnson discussed: Modeste Grau, The First Book of Napoleon, the Tyrant of the Earth, published in London in 1809.

Quote:
And behold, it came to pass, in these latter days, that an evil spirit arose on the face of the earth, and greatly troubled the sons of men.

2. And this spirit seized upon, and spread abroad amongst the people who dwell in the land of Gaul.

3. Now, in this people the fear of the Lord had not been for many generations, and they had become a corrupt and perverse people; and their chief priests, and the nobles of the land, and the learned men thereof, had become wicked in the imaginations of their hearts, and in the practice of their lives.

4. And the evil spirit went abroad amongst the people, and they raged like unto the heathen, and they rose up against their lawful king, and slew him, and his queen also, and the prince their son; yea, verily, with a cruel and bloody death.


http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up


Last edited by Kishkumen on Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:34 pm 
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This one looks equally promising, and, in some respects, its language is even closer to the Book of Mormon than the 1812 epic.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Here's an interesting nugget:

Apparently there is a book by John Walker that lists pronunciation of old greek, latin and scripture names. Many Book of Mormon names come from this list. Also, see:

Quote:
Unspecified editions [of Walker's book] were advertised for sale in such diverse
publications as the Palmyra Herald for September 24, 1823 [III:28], Poor Richard's Almanack for 1829
(published by Elihu F. Marshall, Rochester, the first man to agree to print the Book of Mormon),
and in the publisher's ads at the end of Gilbert J. Hunt's The Late War (mission president 193).


Source for info on John Walker's book.

I'd never heard of John Walker's book. That is worth a read too. (Or at least the least of names referenced in the PDF I linked.) There are a LOT of Book of Mormon names in there.


Last edited by ControlFreak on Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:36 pm 
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ControlFreak wrote:
Has anyone already done a thorough comparison of this yet?


A fellow by the name of Chris Johnson presented on this book and another about Napoleon at the ex-Mo conference.

The crap is about to hit the fan, my friends.

The Napoleon book is also amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Here is another book that Chris Johnson discussed: Modeste Grau, The First Book of Napoleon, the Tyrant of the Earth, published in London in 1909.


It was published in 1809 not 1909. This makes a huge difference.

SILVER BULLETS!!!

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Here is another book that Chris Johnson discussed: Modeste Grau, The First Book of Napoleon, the Tyrant of the Earth, published in London in 1909.
< SNIP >
http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up

Kish,

Looks as if you have a typo in the quoted post: 1909 should be 1809.

The First Book of Napoleon, the Tyrant of the Earth
Eliakim the Scribe (Grau Modeste)

Published by Longman,Hurst,Reese,Orme&Stockdale, London, First Edition, 1809

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:42 pm 
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ControlFreak wrote:
Here's an interesting nugget:

Apparently there is a book by John Walker that lists pronunciation of old greek, latin and scripture names. Many Book of Mormon names come from this list. Also, see:

Quote:
Unspecified editions [of Walker's book] were advertised for sale in such diverse
publications as the Palmyra Herald for September 24, 1823 [III:28], Poor Richard's Almanack for 1829
(published by Elihu F. Marshall, Rochester, the first man to agree to print the Book of Mormon),
and in the publisher's ads at the end of Gilbert J. Hunt's The Late War (mission president 193).


Source for info on John Walker's book.

I'd never heard of John Walker's book. That is worth a read too. (Or at least the least of names referenced in the PDF I linked.) There are a LOT of Book of Mormon names in there.


So, whoever had seen a copy of Walker, and looks as though Smith may well have, could have seen an ad for the Hunt book, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Looks as if you have a typo in the quoted post: 1909 should be 1809.


Indeed, DrW. That is what I had intended to type. Thanks for catching that!


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
So, whoever had seen a copy of Walker, and looks as though Smith may well have, could have seen an ad for the Hunt book, eh?


Seems like it. At a minimum, it shows that people reading the book that very suspiciously lists most of the weird Book of Mormon names (You are in there too!) were also the target audience for this very BoMesque book.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Even if one rejects the "Late War" as the source, it's still devastating. I'm Googling some of the "curious" phrases from the book, and hits not only come up from the Book of Mormon, but the MI, which appears to be offline at the moment. After this discovery, they may wish to leave it that way.


It looks like there are dozens, if not more, LDS articles on why the phrase "curious workmanship" helps show the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

Now what? Michael Ash, help!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
The point being, "Late War" was written "in the ancient style" in modern times, and I'll be damned if it doesn't pass every "ancient imagery" smell test that the Book of Mormon passes.


Well, chiasmus is the iron test, Dean Robbers.

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
It looks like there are dozens, if not more, LDS articles on why the phrase "curious workmanship" helps show the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

Now what? Michael Ash, help!!!


I am curious what Mike will say about Chris Johnson's earth-shattering discovery.

The whole idea that no 19th-century person could have written the Book of Mormon has really been challenged by these discoveries.


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