Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

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Lemmie
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Lemmie »

From page 78, where Mentalgymnast began responding to himself about his own chiasmus conjecture, to the end of this thread is really a separate discussion than the OP. Considering how many views this thread has and how important the topic is, would the OP consider asking mods to break off that section and make it a separate topic?

I ask because Kishkumen and others have recently made some interesting posts re: the OP topic that deserve not to be swallowed up in mg’s “trolling for Mormon Jesus” technique* (which I fully admit I have contributed to myself. Mea culpa.)

(*based on his own admission:
”Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.”)
:rolleyes:

For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.

And then this:
Kishkumen wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

Nothing that I know of yet. The best work of this kind is actually William Davis’ work on John Bunyan’s influence on the Book of Mormon. In many ways, I think his work is much more significant than the discovery of The Late War.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31734&start=1575&p=1200845&view=show#p1200845



I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)
...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#


William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?

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Maksutov
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Maksutov »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Dr Moore wrote:MG, let me just say that as far as practicing the spirit and letter of the prescribed Mormon path, I am a highly credible witness with over 40 years of dedicated hands on experience. And I am currently an active member with both eyes open looking for truth, wherever it lives.


Thanks for that. May I ask one more question?

Is Jesus Christ still part of your open eyed search for truth?

Regards,
MG


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I love this move. Classic cult flip. I've seen it in everything from JWs to Children of God and even among the FLDS. "Let's get you to throw away your brain for my scriptural sock puppet as per my latest urges/revelation." :razz:

Cults hate objective evidence, love the feels. All of them had plenty to hide and deceitfulness up the wazoo. But cuz it's for Jesus it's all good. :lol: :lol: :lol: Cognitive dissonance? Just keep on flipping, dazzle them with your mindless and pointless gyrations, what else have you got? :biggrin:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

7) Confuse your opponent with questions, always questions. The questions need not be relevant. The goal is to get your opponent off their game, and preventing your opponent from making their point. Think Endless Recursion through Irrelevant Questions. Also, do not respond to their leading questions.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

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fetchface
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by fetchface »

Lemmie wrote:I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)
...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#


William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?

I remember when I read Pilgrim's Progress how very Book of Mormony a lot of the passages and ideas in there were. I guess maybe I'll have to give Holy War a go. It might be interesting.

All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Kishkumen »

William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.
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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

Lemmie
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Lemmie »

Kishkumen wrote:William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.

Thanks for the news, looking forward to it!

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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by DoubtingThomas »

mentalgymnast wrote:Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.


Seriously? Does your bishop know that you like to argue with ex-mormons?

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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by mentalgymnast »

fetchface wrote:All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.


What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by mentalgymnast »

mentalgymnast wrote:
fetchface wrote:All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.


What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?



I would argue that many of the "pressing concerns" of the 1830's are very similar to those we have today.

For example, "Is there a God?"

Regards,
MG

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Maksutov
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Maksutov »

mentalgymnast wrote:
I would argue that many of the "pressing concerns" of the 1830's are very similar to those we have today.

For example, "Is there a God?"

Regards,
MG


Of course there is.

Image

But I choose not to follow this God. Or your God Nelson, with his sock puppet Jesus/HF/HG. :lol:

I follow this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way

Enjoy your chiasmus. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov

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fetchface
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by fetchface »

Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Kishkumen »

fetchface wrote:Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.


Is this a recent book or an old one? Who wrote it? When was it published? Thanks for sharing, fetchface.
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

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Morley
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Morley »

Kishkumen wrote:
fetchface wrote:Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.


Is this a recent book or an old one? Who wrote it? When was it published? Thanks for sharing, fetchface.




I think he's referring to Bunyan's book.

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Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Kishkumen »

Morley wrote:I think he's referring to Bunyan's book.


D’oh!

Thanks, Morley. I should have known from context. It seemed like he must be talking about a more recent book.
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Philo Sofee »

Lemmie
For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.


This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. ANd in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:
Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-

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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Fence Sitter »

Philo Sofee wrote:
This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. And in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:


Recently I have heard multiple different LDS scholars, some employed directly by the church, make statements like:

"We have to rethink how we understand the word "translate" when it comes to what Joseph Smith produced."

We don't have to rethink the definition of translate, we simple need to use a different word: 'plagiarize'.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make priests its say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

Lemmie
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by Lemmie »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Lemmie
For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.


This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. ANd in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:

You’re quite welcome. Just knowing an email like that exists is pretty disturbing.

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