It is currently Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:23 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1718 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 78, 79, 80, 81, 82
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:28 am 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 9515
From page 78, where Mentalgymnast began responding to himself about his own chiasmus conjecture, to the end of this thread is really a separate discussion than the OP. Considering how many views this thread has and how important the topic is, would the OP consider asking mods to break off that section and make it a separate topic?

I ask because Kishkumen and others have recently made some interesting posts re: the OP topic that deserve not to be swallowed up in mg’s “trolling for Mormon Jesus” technique* (which I fully admit I have contributed to myself. Mea culpa.)

(*based on his own admission:
”Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.”)
:rolleyes:

For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Quote:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.

And then this:
Kishkumen wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

Nothing that I know of yet. The best work of this kind is actually William Davis’ work on John Bunyan’s influence on the Book of Mormon. In many ways, I think his work is much more significant than the discovery of The Late War.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31734&start=1575&p=1200845&view=show#p1200845



I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)
Quote:
...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#


William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:42 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 12439
Location: Multiverse
mentalgymnast wrote:
Dr Moore wrote:
MG, let me just say that as far as practicing the spirit and letter of the prescribed Mormon path, I am a highly credible witness with over 40 years of dedicated hands on experience. And I am currently an active member with both eyes open looking for truth, wherever it lives.


Thanks for that. May I ask one more question?

Is Jesus Christ still part of your open eyed search for truth?

Regards,
MG


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I love this move. Classic cult flip. I've seen it in everything from JWs to Children of God and even among the FLDS. "Let's get you to throw away your brain for my scriptural sock puppet as per my latest urges/revelation." :razz:

Cults hate objective evidence, love the feels. All of them had plenty to hide and deceitfulness up the wazoo. But cuz it's for Jesus it's all good. :lol: :lol: :lol: Cognitive dissonance? Just keep on flipping, dazzle them with your mindless and pointless gyrations, what else have you got? :biggrin:

_________________
When a master has a Negro and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.-Brigham Young


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 19828
7) Confuse your opponent with questions, always questions. The questions need not be relevant. The goal is to get your opponent off their game, and preventing your opponent from making their point. Think Endless Recursion through Irrelevant Questions. Also, do not respond to their leading questions.

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:46 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1468
Lemmie wrote:
I’ve read William Davis’ 2012 article in the LA Review of Books written by William Davis that discusses the relationship between Bunyan's writings and the Book of Mormon, it was fascinating, so thanks for the reminder, Kishkumen.

(here's an excerpt from that article:)
Quote:
...In fact, based on my years of extensive research and discoveries, Holy War provides what may be the most comprehensive collection of parallel narratives bridging the Book of Mormon to Bunyan’s texts: battles between light- and dark-skinned combatants to the point of annihilation, siege warfare and battle strategies, seditious factions and civil strife, secret cabals attempting to seize government control, righteous men who are heroic captains of war, and even a personal visitation of Jesus Christ and his establishment of a righteous society.

The parallel narratives are ubiquitous and systemic, appearing with sustained consistency throughout the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, reading the Book of Mormon is tantamount to reading John Bunyan’s many works condensed into a single volume.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/hid ... f-mormon/#


William Davis’ dissertation was on the oral performance aspect of the Book of Mormon, which was discussed briefly in this thread.

Has William Davis, or anyone else written further on this connection between the Book of Mormon and Bunyan’s work?

I remember when I read Pilgrim's Progress how very Book of Mormony a lot of the passages and ideas in there were. I guess maybe I'll have to give Holy War a go. It might be interesting.

All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:10 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 20824
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.

_________________
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:01 pm 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 9515
Kishkumen wrote:
William Davis’ book should be coming out very soon. I am eager to read his latest work.

Thanks for the news, looking forward to it!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:23 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 3760
mentalgymnast wrote:
Believe it or not, periodic participation on this board (then jumping off for a while) actually increases my faith and testimony in the truth claims and mission of the CofJCofLDS.


Seriously? Does your bishop know that you like to argue with ex-mormons?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:48 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 8291
fetchface wrote:
All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.


What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?

Regards,
MG


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:51 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 8291
mentalgymnast wrote:
fetchface wrote:
All of the peices of the Book of Mormon are laying at Joseph's feet. It certainly took some skill to combine them all into an oral performance as he did, but it is far from miraculous. Joseph probably had a fairly extraordinary memory and the ability to talk, talk, talk, but there really isn't anything new in the Book of Mormon that wasn't already previously sitting there ready to be thrown in, and it addresses all of the pressing concerns of the 1830s but none from today. Just what we would expect to see if Joseph were a gifted conman.


What are the pressing concerns of today you're referring to?



I would argue that many of the "pressing concerns" of the 1830's are very similar to those we have today.

For example, "Is there a God?"

Regards,
MG


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:54 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 12439
Location: Multiverse
mentalgymnast wrote:

I would argue that many of the "pressing concerns" of the 1830's are very similar to those we have today.

For example, "Is there a God?"

Regards,
MG


Of course there is.

Image

But I choose not to follow this God. Or your God Nelson, with his sock puppet Jesus/HF/HG. :lol:

I follow this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way

Enjoy your chiasmus. :wink:

_________________
When a master has a Negro and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.-Brigham Young


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:56 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1468
Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:43 am 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 20824
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
fetchface wrote:
Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.


Is this a recent book or an old one? Who wrote it? When was it published? Thanks for sharing, fetchface.

_________________
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 3412
Location: The Mahonri Young Academy of Art
Kishkumen wrote:
fetchface wrote:
Well, I just finished The Holy War. I wouldn't have been able to make it through, except I listened to it in audiobook form (thanks to LibriVox.org for free audiobooks for public-domain works!) while I was doing things that I otherwise had to do anyway.

It is an overly-complicated Christian allegory filled with battles and intrigue, all of it absurdly two-dimensional (kind of like the Book of Mormon). It was a total waste of time to read except to disabuse me of the notion that the wars and intrigues in the Book of Mormon were original ideas of Joseph Smith. I think it is very likely that Joseph was familiar with The Holy War and it served as the inspiration for the lengthy accounts of wars in the Book of Mormon.

Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon that weren't already in plain view in Joseph Smith's environment prior to its dictation? I don't think so anymore.


Is this a recent book or an old one? Who wrote it? When was it published? Thanks for sharing, fetchface.




I think he's referring to Bunyan's book.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:13 am 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 20824
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
Morley wrote:
I think he's referring to Bunyan's book.


D’oh!

Thanks, Morley. I should have known from context. It seemed like he must be talking about a more recent book.

_________________
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:14 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 5919
Location: Cassius University Hall of Mirrors - Its Symbolic of Something Significant I Just Know it!
Quote:
Lemmie
For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.


This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. ANd in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:

_________________
Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:50 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8750
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
Philo Sofee wrote:

This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. And in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:


Recently I have heard multiple different LDS scholars, some employed directly by the church, make statements like:

"We have to rethink how we understand the word "translate" when it comes to what Joseph Smith produced."

We don't have to rethink the definition of translate, we simple need to use a different word: 'plagiarize'.

_________________
“The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so that they could be distinguished from Nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord. Dark skin is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse”
LDS Church "Come Follow Me" manual in 2020, print version.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:32 pm 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 9515
Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
Lemmie
For example, re: Kishkumen’s first post this year:
Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.

:eek: Is anyone curious about that email from BYU? :lol: Not asking for the author Kish, but WOW. That seems like quite the email to receive. Any further details you could add would be fascinating.


This is exquisitely fascinating. I had forgotten about it, so Lemmie GOOD job in bringing it back to context and focus. Through the years, it just appears to me that more and more influences have been found for Joseph Smith to use, something I was never taught much of until after my mission. That's 19 full on years of brainwash man. ANd in the most impressionable years too.... :sad:

You’re quite welcome. Just knowing an email like that exists is pretty disturbing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1718 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 78, 79, 80, 81, 82

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DrW, Simon Southerton, Stem, The Stig and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group