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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
New to the forum and as I go through this massive thread that's been my line of thinking so far. It's one big circle jerk. "It's awesome" "The death blow" "Raining silver bullets" I really hope it doesn't continue on like this or I'm going to lose interest.

On the subject of circle jerks,...it is ironic that you have kept yourself center of attention, of a rather long thread. And there is a former attendee of this board who was prone to use the phrase "circle jerk" is a non-sexual way of course. Is "waterdog" just another sock puppet?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:28 am 
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This was one of the most-watched videos on YouTube before it got taken down because the maroons at Google have no concept of fair use. It is back up (for now). If it gets taken down, it can be viewed in chunks at Vimeo. It is relevant to the discussion of the creative process. It is called "Everything is a Remix":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGpmA4saEk

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:01 am 
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Tomorrow will be the 6th anniversary of our epic conversation on The Late War as a contemporary influence on the Book of Mormon. This thread was so hot that I received an email from BYU recommending that I slow down and conceding the basic point of influence. The author’s name will remain unknown.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:25 am 
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was this a “remember our friend Grant Palmer?” Kind of suggestion?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:31 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
was this a “remember our friend Grant Palmer?” Kind of suggestion?

I am not sure I follow, Dean Robbers, but I do know that Grant Palmer is a man worthy of remembrance.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:16 am 
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Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:15 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

The comparisons to The Late War and others are generally strong enough to show that Book of Mormon language and themes were very similar to those of contemporary writers. The only extraordinary thing I see about the Book of Mormon is its longevity of a following who believes it is a miraculous book. That belief in it, not the book itself, is extraordinary.


Last edited by Meadowchik on Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:23 am 
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Great job Reverend.

Almost 300,000 views? Good Lord!

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:38 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

It seemed to me the initial enthusiasm for it being evidence of plagiarism was blunted by time. IMO, that was due to the initial reaction misinterpreting what the Late War revealed about the period when the Book of Mormon was being authored in the 19th century. If one took the view that Smith had a copy of The Late War and was quoting from it or using it as a template for the narrative for the Book of Mormon since he and/or Cowdery probably read it at some point possibly as school children, the apologetic response only required showing there is sufficient diversity and divergence of narrative to satisfy a given, questioning reader this wasn't the case. And that appears to be what happened with that line of argument. Apologists made use of Bayes to attempt to settle that point such similarities were not evidence of direct copying.

On the other hand, if one saw The Late War as demonstrating what a 19th century attempt at replicating the language of the King James Bible would look like, resulting in many of the grammatic structures and phrasing often claimed by apologetics for the Book of Mormon as evidence of genuine Hebrew authorship, then that was conclusively demonstrated with the initial study and to my knowledge remains unchallenged.

Despite the overreaction to what it could ultimately prove and subsequent cooling off, I believe it deserves far more mentions than it gets these 6 years on for essentially pruning away entire branches of Book of Mormon apologetics even if it didn't prove Smith was copying the Book of Mormon from a 19th century source.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:47 am 
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viewtopic.php?p=782265#p782265

Probably my favorite post in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:48 am 
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Thanks for the ideas... Man re-reading this thread alone is gonna take me over 20 minutes ..... :lol:

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:26 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Did anything of substance ever come of any of this? Or was it decided that, after all, we still don't have any modern source(s) for the Book of Mormon for sure other than Smith's imagination? Is anyone still doing an studies and comparisons and analysis?

Nothing that I know of yet. The best work of this kind is actually William Davis’ work on John Bunyan’s influence on the Book of Mormon. In many ways, I think his work is much more significant than the discovery of The Late War.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:31 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
The comparisons to The Late War and others are generally strong enough to show that Book of Mormon language and themes were very similar to those of contemporary writers.

The hard lifting remains to be done, but the evidence is very clear. The Book of Mormon slots into its historical context perfectly. Nothing about the text is altogether unprecedented. It may be unique in its combination of traits, but those traits can be found in other places.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:38 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
On the other hand, if one saw The Late War as demonstrating what a 19th century attempt at replicating the language of the King James Bible would look like, resulting in many of the grammatic structures and phrasing often claimed by apologetics for the Book of Mormon as evidence of genuine Hebrew authorship, then that was conclusively demonstrated with the initial study and to my knowledge remains unchallenged.

Despite the overreaction to what it could ultimately prove and subsequent cooling off, I believe it deserves far more mentions than it gets these 6 years on for essentially pruning away entire branches of Book of Mormon apologetics even if it didn't prove Smith was copying the Book of Mormon from a 19th century source.

Although I stand by the title of the thread for its accuracy, it was nevertheless a poor choice considering the target readership. Very early on in the thread I stipulate that I am talking about generic similarities. The most obvious plagiarism in the Book of Mormon is plagiarism of the KJV. Plagiarism is the wrong concept for grappling with what the Book of Mormon is as a whole.

I agree that this does deserve more work and more mentions. It is unfortunate that the failure to take up this task has resulted in the usual apologetic obfuscations about this significant discovery. It is treated as a flop criticism, or as if it falls into the “asked and answered” file. This is yet more evidence of the epistemicide of apologetics. Often apologetics are destructive of knowledge, or at least they hamper the progress of knowledge.

But then, so too does the fixation on simple debunking.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:40 am 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Great job Reverend.

Almost 300,000 views? Good Lord!

Thank you, Everybody Wang Chung. Looks like it was worth posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:41 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
It seemed to me the initial enthusiasm for it being evidence of plagiarism was blunted by time. IMO, that was due to the initial reaction misinterpreting what the Late War revealed about the period when the Book of Mormon was being authored in the 19th century. If one took the view that Smith had a copy of The Late War and was quoting from it or using it as a template for the narrative for the Book of Mormon since he and/or Cowdery probably read it at some point possibly as school children, the apologetic response only required showing there is sufficient diversity and divergence of narrative to satisfy a given, questioning reader this wasn't the case. And that appears to be what happened with that line of argument. Apologists made use of Bayes to attempt to settle that point such similarities were not evidence of direct copying.

On the other hand, if one saw The Late War as demonstrating what a 19th century attempt at replicating the language of the King James Bible would look like, resulting in many of the grammatic structures and phrasing often claimed by apologetics for the Book of Mormon as evidence of genuine Hebrew authorship, then that was conclusively demonstrated with the initial study and to my knowledge remains unchallenged.

Despite the overreaction to what it could ultimately prove and subsequent cooling off, I believe it deserves far more mentions than it gets these 6 years on for essentially pruning away entire branches of Book of Mormon apologetics even if it didn't prove Smith was copying the Book of Mormon from a 19th century source.

I remember this thread quite well, one of the first when I arrived here. And I am cringing at some of my comments. That's how we learn, though. Or at least it's part of how I learn, by getting taken to the woodshed.

I think TLW is the skeptics version of NHM in some respects. Apologists didn't use Bayes to refute TLW so much as they merely pointed out that the Johnson's didn't know what they were doing. No offense to them, but they did a very amateur job. They had the right idea in attempting to develop a model to demonstrate significance, but just didn't know what they didn't know. As I recall, the Johnson's also weren't so keen on collaborating and sharing data. I believe there were some experts who wanted to work with them to get a proper paper published in a respectable venue, but they weren't playing nice. As seems to happen with a lot of these things (See Dehlin, Kelly, Runnels, McKnight, et al), people get very protective of their little pet project.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:49 am 
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Quote:
The hard lifting remains to be done, but the evidence is very clear. The Book of Mormon slots into its historical context perfectly. Nothing about the text is altogether unprecedented. It may be unique in its combination of traits, but those traits can be found in other places.

I'm going to steal this line (with plagiaristic proper credit.... :lol: ) for my current reviewing of a particular part of Harrells book "This is My Doctrine" if that is OK with you....

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:52 am 
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Hi Water Dog,

You're probably right, and I have no idea regarding any reaching out to the Johnson's in an attempt to develop a suitably publishable paper but it sounds consistent with what was taking place at the time.

I think much of the original argument one observed when it first came out hinged on TLW being in the possession of Smith or not, or it being a direct influence on the wording of the Book of Mormon. Plagiarism was probably not the best description but the idea it was directly influencing the authorship of the Book of Mormon was essentially the smoking gun that has more or less gone away over the last 6 years. Ultimately though, whatever their failings were, the Johnson's do seem to have brought to light a fairly compelling example of a contemporary to the Book of Mormon produced by a non-inspired attempt to replicate the language and "heft" of the KJV of the Bible that resulted in far too many similar phrases and so-called Hebraisms such that anyone attempting to claim the same so-called Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon were evidence of ancient authorship had to crawl over, under and through TLW. Now we have E mod E and even more outlandish attempts to place the language in a unique, inexplicable context that proves it wasn't the product of Smith's time. Yet, TLW.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:04 pm 
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It is true that the Johnsons brought attention to this possibility, but the fixation on problems or merits of their methodology is a red herring. The similarity between the two texts is sufficient to establish a relationship between them that is worthy of closer study. In other words, “Thanks, Johnsons; now we will move forward on our own.” To call this the skeptics’ NHM is misleading.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:15 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
Ultimately though, whatever their failings were, the Johnson's do seem to have brought to light a fairly compelling example of a contemporary to the Book of Mormon produced by a non-inspired attempt to replicate the language and "heft" of the KJV of the Bible that resulted in far too many similar phrases and so-called Hebraisms such that anyone attempting to claim the same so-called Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon were evidence of ancient authorship had to crawl over, under and through TLW.


Hi honor,

Are there examples of complex chiasms in TLW? Were they pointed out by the Johnsons and would you be willing to paste a few of those here?

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:29 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Hi honor,

Are there examples of complex chiasms in TLW? Were they pointed out by the Johnsons and would you be willing to paste a few of those here?

Regards,
MG


Yes. Just click on “Chiasmus” located under the Table of Contents:

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

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