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 Post subject: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:42 pm 
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As much as I hate myself for saying it, sometimes it pays to be on Facebook. While perusing my News feed, I came across an excited post from one of my "friends" about a book he claimed was very likely one of Joseph Smith's sources for the Book of Mormon. Naturally, I was skeptical. After all, we have seen the various works that have been brought forward as possible inspirations for Smith's Book of Mormon, most famously the Spalding novel, and I have not been particularly impressed by any of them.

So, I hit the link expecting to be underwhelmed, when the following language leapt off the page:

Quote:
Now it came to pass, in the one thousand eight hundred and twelfth year of the christian era, and in the thirty and sixth year after the people of the provinces of Columbia had declared themselves a free and independent nation;

2. That in the sixth month of the same year, on the first day of the month, the chief Governor, whom the people had chosen to rule over the land of Columbia;

3. Even James, whose sir-name was Madison, delivered a written paper to the Great Sannhedrim of the people, who were assembled together.

4. And the name of the city where the people were gathered together was called after the name of the chief captain of the land of Columbia, whose fame extendeth to the uttermost parts of the earth; albeit, he had slept with his fathers.


I was stunned.

The book is The History of the Late War between the United States and Great Britain by Gilbert J. Hunt. It was published in 1816. Its author lived in New York City, and, according to the person who posted the original link, it was "widely available in New York schools in the 1820s."

Thus far I have only read the first two chapters, but I have to say that the resemblance to the language of the Book of Mormon is very striking. Whoever discovered this may have unlocked an important aspect of the mystery of the production of the Book of Mormon.

Take a look for yourselves:

http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up

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Last edited by Kishkumen on Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Find out more. This is interesting. Could be a silver bullet.

Good work, Kishyboy.

:biggrin:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Find out more. This is interesting. Could be a silver bullet.

Good work, Kishyboy.

:biggrin:

Paul O

Maybe a full magazine of an AK-47 would be enough. (30)

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BTW the site of this pic: http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/2011/05/24 ... -part-3-2/

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:10 pm 
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And if, peradventure, the people of Columbia go out not to battle against the king, then will the manifold wrongs committed against them be increased tenfold, and they shall be as a mock and a bye-word among all nations.

10. Moreover, the righteousness of your cause shall lead you unto glory, and the pillars of your liberty shall not be shaken.

11. Therefore, say we unto you, Gird on your swords and go forth to battle against the king; and the Lord God of Hosts be with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:13 pm 
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And it came to pass, that when the princes and the lords and the counsellors of Britain saw the Decree, their wrath was kindled, and their hearts were ready to burst with indignation.

2. For, verily, said they, this insult hath overflowed the cup of our patience; and now we will chastise the impudence of these Yankees, and the people of Columbia shall bow before the king.

3. Then will we rule them with a rod of iron; and they shall be, unto us, hewers of wood and drawers of water.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:17 pm 
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14. Now it happened, about this time, that there were numbers of inhabitants of the country of Columbia whose hearts yearned after the king of Britain.

15. And with their false flattering words they led astray some of the friends of Columbian Liberty; for their tongues were smoother than oil.

16. Evil machinations entered into their hearts, and the poison of their breath might be likened unto the deadly Bohon Upas, which rears its lofty branches in the barren valley of Java.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:19 pm 
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The Book of Mormon is in trouble at every turn. And now it appears it may have a bigger problem. Is anyone getting a burning in the bosom and the feeling that this is infact what helped motivate and inspire Joe Smith and his pals to write the Book of Mormon?

I may just have to read the whole damn thing now.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Very interesting read so far.

Lots of similarities. Has this book been addressed by the Mopologists before?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Chris Johnson made what some are saying was a fantastic presentation of his theory on this yesterday at the exmormon foundation conference. It was that book along with another--The book of napoleon or something--that he pointed to. I will try to find a link with more info, but I am sure the Facebook post you saw was based on his presentation.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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17. And they strove to dishearten the true friends of the great Sannhedrim; but they prevailed not.

18. Moreover, Satan entered into the heart of one of the governors of the east, and he was led astray by the wickedness thereof, even Caleb the Strong.

19. Now Caleb, which in the Cherokee tongue, signifieth an ass, liked not the decree of the great Sannhedrim, inasmuch as he favored the king of Britain.

20. And, though willing to become a beast of burden, yet would he not move on account of his very great stupidity.

21. And he said unto the captains of the hosts of the state over which he presided, Lo! it seemeth not meet unto me that ye go forth to battle against the king.

22. For, Lo! are not the fighting men of Britain, in multitude, as the sand on the seashore? and shall we prevail against them?

23. Are not the mighty ships of the king spread over the whole face of the waters? Is not Britains the "bulwark of our religion?"

24. Therefore, I command that ye go not out to battle, but every man remain in his own house.

25. And all the governors of the east listened unto the voice of Caleb.

26. Moreover, an angel of the Lord whispered into the ear of Caleb, and spake unto him, saying,

27. If, peradventure, thou dost refuse to obey the laws of the land, the thing will not be pleasant in the sight of the Lord;

28. Inasmuch as it may cause the people to rise up one against another, and spill the blood of their own children;

29. And the time of warfare will be lengthened out, and the blood of thousands will be upon thine head.

30. And Satan spake, and said unto Caleb, Fear not; for if thou wilt forsake they country, and throw off the paltry subterfuge of Columbian Liberty, and defy the councils of the great Sanhedrim,

31. The shall they name be proclaimed with the sound of the trumpet throughout all the earth; and thou shalt be a prince and a ruler over this people.

32. Now the smooth words of Satan tickled Caleb mightily, and he hearkened unto the counsel of the wicked one:

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Kishkumen,

Your link opened to the first chapter of the book, which you indicated you had read.

Have you turned back to and read the Preface? If so, what do you think about it?

If you have not done so yet, your stunning experience may not yet be complete.

Not hard to imagine the impact the Preface would have on someone in Joseph Smith's position. It seems to be both an invitation and an instruction book on writing history in a traditional, proper and, yes, even biblical manner and style.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Folks, this looks like a smoking gun if I have ever seen one.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Kish,

I'm trying to find out more about this. One of the attendees posted this about the presentation on Reddit: http://pr.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comment ... e_book_of/

Quote:
Chris Johnson used some impressive algorithms and literary analysis to show similarities. Many of us know about "View of the Hebrews" but that book was not the one that showed the highest level of similarity.

There was a lot of analysis and "mathy" algorithms but basically his data shows that it is very likely that the Book of Mormon, D&C, Book of Abraham, and Pearl of Great Price were all plagiarized by single author.


Does anybody know if this presentation is online somewhere yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Reverend,

The hair is literally standing on the back of my neck.

The defense will be, the "Late War" is written to mimick Bible writing, so a Brandt Gardner will say that the Book of Mormon and this book simply share a common "textual layer". The challenge will be to show similarities not accounted for by the Bible.

My first instinct was, why would Joseph Smith and company pick a satire, was the Book of Mormon a joke? So I read the introduction to glean any kind of intention, and it looks like the book was written with profound seriousness.

This definitely deserves attention, I myself will be busy at work filtering out the Bible to see if there are any dead hits.

This little reference of yours I kid you not is as, if not more promising, than other proposed sources. I've always been of the mindset that the Book of Mormon is obviously false, no need to get desperate and force an explanation for it. Much of what I read explaining the Book of Mormon seems forced, so I'm not drawn to it. But this little gem, this is holding my interest...


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Folks, this looks like a smoking gun if I have ever seen one.


Indeed it does. Oh boy. The house is on fire now!

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Let the children of Columbia beware of false prophets which come in sheep's clothing; for it is written, Ye shall know them by their fruits.

2. Now it came to pass, that a certain man, whose sir-name was Henry, came before James, the chief governor, and opened his mouth, and spake unto him, saying,

3. Lo! If thou wilt give unto me two score and ten thousand pieces of silver, then will I unfold unto thee the witchcraft of Britain, that thereby thy nation may not be caught in her snares.

4. And James said unto him, Verily, for the good of my country I will do this thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Reverend,

The hair is literally standing on the back of my neck.

The defense will be, the "Late War" is written to mimick Bible writing, so a Brandt Gardner will say that the Book of Mormon and this book simply share a common "textual layer". The challenge will be to show similarities not accounted for by the Bible.

My first instinct was, why would Joseph Smith and company pick a satire, was the Book of Mormon a joke? So I read the introduction to glean any kind of intention, and it looks like the book was written with profound seriousness.

This definitely deserves attention, I myself will be busy at work filtering out the Bible to see if there are any dead hits.

This little reference of yours I kid you not is as, if not more promising, than other proposed sources. I've always been of the mindset that the Book of Mormon is obviously false, no need to get desperate and force an explanation for it. Much of what I read explaining the Book of Mormon seems forced, so I'm not drawn to it. But this little gem, this is holding my interest...


Dean Robbers,

Yes, we need a full court press from the entire faculty of Cassius on this one. As you have presciently noted, one of the best parts about all of this is that we will be able to observe the evolution of the Mopologetic response to this "smoking gun" from the beginning. I don't use the term smoking gun lightly. Indeed, I would be chary of doing so were it not for the stunning resemblance of this text to the Book of Mormon, not only in terms of language, but also in its divine mechanics and parallel anecdotes. One wonders how the Mopologetic set will spin this one.

Perhaps an entire issue of the Interpreter devoted to this challenge.

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Last edited by Kishkumen on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:45 pm 
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11. Now, there was a certain hypocrite, whose name was Elijah, and he was a false prophet in the east, and he led astray those of little understanding; moreover, he was an hireling, and preached for the sake of filthy lucre.

12. And he rose up and called himself a preacher of the gospel, and his words were smooth, and the people marvelled at him;

13. But he profaned the temple of the Lord, and he strove to lead his disciples into the wrong way.

14. And many wise men turned their backs against him; nevertheless, he repented not of his sins unto this day.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Now, there was a certain hypocrite, whose name was Eligah, and he was a false prophet of the east, and he led astray those of little understanding; morever, he was an hireling, and preached for the sake of filthy lucre.

And he rose up and called himself a preacher of the gospel, and his words were smooth, and the people marvelled at him;

But he profaned the temple of the Lord, and strove to lead his disciplies into the wrong way.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Yes, we need a full court press from the entire faculty of Cassius on this one.


Indeed. This really looks serious and presents a grave situation for the LDS church. If it can be logically shown that this is original source material that inspired the Book of Mormon production it just might be enough to knock the Book of Mormon on its ass forever! Taking into consideration all the plagiarism, anachronisms, and errors of the Book of Mormon this might serve as a final death blow. The church is going to lose a lot of members on this one! And better yet, the church is going to lose a lot of potential converts!!

Notice that I said nothing about the writing of Facsimile No. 3 not matching up with Joe's official Explanations (revelations)?

:wink:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:47 pm 
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er...I kid you not, I posted the above before seeing Kish's post, which was made in the same minute.

Either I am Kish's sock, or the case is closed.

We have the smoking gun.


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