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 Post subject: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:21 pm 
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This is important. He is setting himself apart from other defenders of the Book of Abraham.

He said TRANSLATED right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... x3CA#t=113

Not interpreted, not felt like, not revealed.

TRANSLATED.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:25 am 
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The Book of Abraham
Translated from the Papyrus, by Joseph Smith.
A Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 3

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4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.

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----------------------------------------------

Is that right? How about Kerry-boy show us the name of the prince which is written above the hand and translate it using his revelatory powers which he claims to have in his video.

Waiting for Kerry-boy to translate! What's the name, I can't hear you. Speak up! What? Can't hear you!

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:29 am 
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The name of the king and prince is written up there in the writing above the hands just like Joseph Smith said but it's a little hard to make out. If you look above and through the fingers and shift your eyes back and forth it's clear that Joseph Smith was seeing the royal names of the BofA. It's all right there.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:33 am 
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I'm not saying that Anubis in Facsimile No. 3 is a slave but what I'm saying is that the slave is Anubis and so Joseph Smith got it right. It's all how you interpret it and the translation is a spiritual matter. Translating is a tricky business, we are not talking about German being translated into French. We are talking about Egyptian history being revealed by a modern prophet!

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:38 am 
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Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand -- it's right there according to the translation and revelation given by the prophet Joseph Smith. All you have to do is open your spiritual eyes and let it appear.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
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All of this silliness is going to come back to bite Kerry Muhlestein. One day he will regret those videos with a mighty regret.

He is making a fool of himself in public and had better pray hard that he makes tenure at BYU. Because like Dan Peterson, Jon Gee and a number of Mopologists who also fancy themselves as academics, he is slowly but surely making himself unemployable in the real world.

What a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:21 pm 
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A couple of years ago, my stake president spoke in ward conference about the increasing numbers of people he was aware of who had discovered "troubling" information about the church on the Internet. He said he understood why people were troubled, and he offered to help anyone who was struggling with these things. My wife turned to me and said, "Wow, he's talking directly to you." I didn't think so, but she asked me if I would go and talk to him, and I thought, why not? What could it hurt?

So I made an appointment, and I had a really nice visit with him. He is a biology professor at BYU and was familiar with a lot of the issues that most people find troubling. He said he knew people at BYU who might be able to help me resolve my issues, so he said he would send me some contact information. He also said that, for him, his testimony of the Book of Mormon and of the temple trumped everything else. He even said that, if it weren't for his testimony, he would say that Mormonism looks like an obvious fraud. I left thinking much more highly of the stake president, who had obviously struggled through the issues and come out with his faith in tact.

A couple of days later, I received a very nice email from him, and he gave me two names: Spencer Fluhman and Kerry Muhlestein. I'd never heard of Dr. Fluhman, but I had recently read an essay by Muhlestein on the Book of Abraham and was wholly unimpressed. So, I passed on him, but I had a long chat with Spencer Fluhman over some lovely Pho. I can't say enough good things about him. Of course, my saying so probably makes him suspect in some circles.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:58 pm 
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DrW wrote:
He is making a fool of himself in public and had better pray hard that he makes tenure at BYU. Because like Dan Peterson, Jon Gee and a number of Mopologists who also fancy themselves as academics, he is slowly but surely making himself unemployable in the real world.

What a joke.


To make a fool of oneself in public, I think one first has to be a fool in private. I think he has a strong faith in his revelatory experiences. As you well know, this is not science. Personally, I think he has the conviction that only comes from a deep, repressed insecurity.

Do you think that other Egyptologists snicker a little behind his back?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
DrW wrote:
He is making a fool of himself in public and had better pray hard that he makes tenure at BYU. Because like Dan Peterson, Jon Gee and a number of Mopologists who also fancy themselves as academics, he is slowly but surely making himself unemployable in the real world.

What a joke.


To make a fool of oneself in public, I think one first has to be a fool in private. I think he has a strong faith in his revelatory experiences. As you well know, this is not science.

Egyptology should be a science - a soft science to be sure, but a science nonetheless. Muhlestein certainly does not seem treat his chosen profession with any respect at all, let alone any acknowledgement that it is, or should be, a science. To him it seems like a tool he can use to foist his unfounded beliefs off on others. The guy is a joke.
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Do you think that other Egyptologists snicker a little behind his back?

Snicker?

One look at those videos and it would be ROTFLMAO.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:22 pm 
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So who's going to email this video to Kerry's peers - the anti-religion professors of Egyptology. I'm sure they would love to hear what Kerry thinks of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham was TRANSLATED
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:26 pm 
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As has been said by many, When you have Faith, facts don't matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:50 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Egyptology should be a science - a soft science to be sure, but a science nonetheless. Muhlestein certainly does not seem treat his chosen profession with any respect at all, let alone any acknowledgement that it is, or should be, a science. To him it seems like a tool he can use to foist his unfounded beliefs off on others. The guy is a joke.
Quote:
Do you think that other Egyptologists snicker a little behind his back?

Snicker?

One look at those videos and it would be ROTFLMAO.


:lol:

I agree that Egyptology, Anthropology and Archeology are soft sciences. I'm not so sure about the translation of hieroglyphs and hieratic. I think that ever since Champollion cracked it in the 1820's it's become a hard science. Like Latin, I don't think there is much controversy about how to read them or what they mean.

The fact that Egyptian hieroglyphs are easy to read makes Muhlestein seem even a little sillier.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:46 am 
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Runtu wrote:
... but I had a long chat with Spencer Fluhman over some lovely Pho. I can't say enough good things about him. Of course, my saying so probably makes him suspect in some circles.
Was Fluhman able to help answer any of your questions/concerns, or did he give you the standard apologist responses?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:11 am 
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Runtu wrote:
He even said that, if it weren't for his testimony, he would say that Mormonism looks like an obvious fraud.


Your stake president admitted that the entire nonMormon world has every right to view Mormonism as an obvious fraud. And since every nonmember of the church doesn't have a testimony they are entirely within their rights to oppose Mormonism openly and try and convince Mormons that they are committing a fraud.

Would your stake president admit that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are entirely a fraud? What can he say about them? Oh, he will say that he has a testimony and knows the Book of Mormon and the temple are true so therefore we need not pay any mind to the Facsimile. That would be like a police officer who found a body laying in the street with a knife wound in the back and a man standing next to him holding a bloody knife and saying, "I didn't do it, I'm a Christian" and the officer lets him go.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:03 am 
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Runtu wrote:
A couple of years ago, my stake president spoke in ward conference about the increasing numbers of people he was aware of who had discovered "troubling" information about the church on the Internet. He said he understood why people were troubled, and he offered to help anyone who was struggling with these things. My wife turned to me and said, "Wow, he's talking directly to you." I didn't think so, but she asked me if I would go and talk to him, and I thought, why not? What could it hurt?

So I made an appointment, and I had a really nice visit with him. He is a biology professor at BYU and was familiar with a lot of the issues that most people find troubling. He said he knew people at BYU who might be able to help me resolve my issues, so he said he would send me some contact information. He also said that, for him, his testimony of the Book of Mormon and of the temple trumped everything else. He even said that, if it weren't for his testimony, he would say that Mormonism looks like an obvious fraud. I left thinking much more highly of the stake president, who had obviously struggled through the issues and come out with his faith in tact.

A couple of days later, I received a very nice email from him, and he gave me two names: Spencer Fluhman and Kerry Muhlestein. I'd never heard of Dr. Fluhman, but I had recently read an essay by Muhlestein on the Book of Abraham and was wholly unimpressed. So, I passed on him, but I had a long chat with Spencer Fluhman over some lovely Pho. I can't say enough good things about him. Of course, my saying so probably makes him suspect in some circles.

Fellowship seldom trumps logic. Humans have rationale brains and several opportunities for society that do not require that they compromise problems with illogical religion. The "help" with the questions is have a nice chat with a nice person who acknowledges privately that the issues are in fact troubling--"now, see, don't you still want to be Mormon?"


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Was Fluhman able to help answer any of your questions/concerns, or did he give you the standard apologist responses?


He simply acknowledged that there are some things that ought to disturb us and said he understood why people like me would find those issues insurmountable. He said he was frustrated that the church wasn't totally forthcoming about its history and origins, and he mentioned that when he had served on committees for church publications, he was stymied and shot down by others.

Ultimately, he said, he rested on faith and testimony, which I respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
He said he was frustrated that the church wasn't totally forthcoming about its history and origins, and he mentioned that when he had served on committees for church publications, he was stymied and shot down by others.


The Mormon party is over, turn out the lights! The lying church is going DOWN!

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Was Fluhman able to help answer any of your questions/concerns, or did he give you the standard apologist responses?


He simply acknowledged that there are some things that ought to disturb us and said he understood why people like me would find those issues insurmountable. He said he was frustrated that the church wasn't totally forthcoming about its history and origins, and he mentioned that when he had served on committees for church publications, he was stymied and shot down by others.

Ultimately, he said, he rested on faith and testimony, which I respect.


Respect?

Yes, in the sense that if someone apparently sincerely proclaims his faith to me in a personal capacity, and does not ask me to give him my best counter-punch, I smile and say "I'm glad it works for your".

No, in the sense that if person A bears his faith-based testimony to person B, and person B asks me on another occasion whether he should follow A's example, I will tell him exactly what I think about that idea. And that would basically be that A's life is based on a mirage, and it is better to look facts in the face than to be deceived.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Respect?

Yes, in the sense that if someone apparently sincerely proclaims his faith to me in a personal capacity, and does not ask me to give him my best counter-punch, I smile and say "I'm glad it works for your".

No, in the sense that if person A bears his faith-based testimony to person B, and person B asks me on another occasion whether he should follow A's example, I will tell him exactly what I think about that idea. And that would basically be that A's life is based on a mirage, and it is better to look facts in the face than to be deceived.


I don't question other people's testimony, and I respect that they continue to believe despite knowing the problems. I certainly respect that more than people who tell me there are no problems and therefore there's something morally, spiritually, or intellectually wrong with me because I don't believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:30 pm 
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I think that this new LDS Apologist believes that the Book of Abraham was translation in a conventional manner from a missing papyrus that got burned up in the Great Chicago fire of 1871. However, the belief that the Book of Abraham was translated in a conventional manner from a missing papyrus has been refuted.
Here is Brent Metcalfe again:

Quote:
Other Book of Abraham scholars, including me, roundly reject any notion of a missing papyrus from which Smith translated the Book of Abraham narrative. Reasons for this include:

Facsimile 1 is the opening vignette in the Breathing Permit of Hôr.

Facsimile 3 is the closing vignette in the Breathing Permit of Hôr. (The Hôr papyrus fragment for Fac. 3 is not extant. Still, the Fac. 3 woodcut preserves the identity of the deceased—Hôr—confirming that it too belongs to Hôr's Breathing Permit.)

The Book of Abraham identifies Facsimile 1 (the opening vignette in Hôr's Breathing Permit) as an illustration placed at the "commencement" (Abr. 1:12) or "beginning" (Abr. 1:14) of patriarch Abraham's record.

Vignette Facsimile 3 (from the Breathing Permit of Hôr), according to Smith, also illustrates scenes from Abraham's life.

In keeping with the Book of Abraham claim that Facsimile 1 opened the record, all extant dictated Book of Abraham manuscripts (MS 1a [fldr. 2], MS 1b [fldr. 3], and MS 2 [fldr. 1]) contain authentic hieratic copied sequentially from the contiguous portion of the Breathing Permit of Hôr only. (There are two minor exceptions to sequence, but those characters too originate from Hôr's Breathing Permit. Invented, non-authentic Egyptian characters also appear on the manuscripts at points where the papyrus fragment has a lacuna.)

All authentic Egyptian characters in Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet manuscripts and the bound Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language were copied from the Breathing Permit of Hôr.

Aside from hypocephalus Facsimile 2 (the original of which is no longer extant), Hôr's Breathing Permit is the only papyrus that is associated with Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham—an association that is attested to repeatedly in the Book of Abraham text and its antecedent manuscripts.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30990&p=746582#p746582

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Book of Abraham wa
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:43 pm 
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The LDS Apologist clown Pahoran has stated:

Quote:
As you must know, if you are half as well informed as you so loudly and incessantly boast, the real apologetic argument put forward by Gee et al is that a great deal of the papyri Joseph once had is now missing, and therefore, absent any authoritative statement on the subject from Joseph or someone close to him, any speculation about which bit of papyrus was the (or a) source for the Book of Abraham is necessarily inconclusive.


http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/562 ... his/page-2



However, Dr. Robert Ritner has stated from his recent book:

Quote:
As a result of this uniformity, the original size of the papyrus is not in doubt. With textual restorations and the now lost Facsimile 3, the papyrus will have measured about 150–155 cm. 27 At most, the papyrus might have been expanded by the inclusion of a further, middle vignette, as found in Papyrus Tübingen 2016, 28 but on the basis of the known parallels there is no reasonable expectation of any further text. Gee has repeatedly insisted that the Breathing Permit was “followed by another text, the only portions of which have been preserved are the maddeningly elliptical opening words: ‘Beginning of the Book of …’.” 29 No such words “have been preserved,” and the statement derives from an early error in reading the text by Seyffarth and a guess, recast as a fact, by Gee. 30 Seyffarth was an early outcast from Egyptology, notable for being the last holdout against the decipherment of hieroglyphs by Champollion. In any case, his own statements do not support the existence of a second text on the Hôr papyrus. 31

and the footnotes to the above excerpt:

27 Baer 1968, p. 127, n. 113. See further Ritner 2003a, p. 166. Gee 2000a, pp. 10 and 12–13, has claimed that this papyrus will have measured “320 cm (about 10 feet),” but that is the average length of a blank papyrus roll as manufactured in the Ptolemaic era—not the length of the known Books of Breathing copied on sections cut from such rolls. Rhodes 2002, p. 4, was intentionally ambiguous, noting that “the entire Book of Breathings would have been about 156 cm,” and that “the Hor Book of Breathings would have taken up about half the length of one of these rolls.” Rhodes did not state that the Book of Breathings papyrus would have been about 156 cm, since that would deny the possibility of the Book of Abraham’s appearance elsewhere on the same papyrus. There is, however, no such possibility. For mathematical refutation that the scroll could have
contained a further text, see Cook and Smith 2010.
28 Brunner-Traut and Brunner 1981, pp. 296–97 and pls. 12–13, 150 (bottom), and 151 (left).
29 See Gee 2005, p. 96; and 2000a, p. 10.
30 See Gee 2000b, pp. 187, 189 and 212, n. 57, where Gee discusses an admittedly false reading of Seyffarth (˙£.t- ™ m ß™y as “Book of Hymns”) and suggests—with contorted logic—that in a different context Seyffarth, noting an “invocation,” “might have read the beginning lines of another text, one after the Book of Breathings.” Gee’s declarations rest exclusively on this flimsy evidence.
31 Seyffarth 1860; most of the article concerns his quarrels with Champollion and others, and it well reflects his “outsider status” (as acknowledged by Gee 2000b, pp. 209–10, n. 45). The most relevant pages for Gee’s statement are on p. 8 of the introductory hand copies (= plate XIX/8 of the 16 pages preceding the title page,
indicated as plate XIX only in the article), and pp. 530 and 535–36. Seyffarth did translate the phrase ˙£.t-™ m ß™y.t n snsn with “The book of praises laudatory for singing the glories of him” on plate XIX/8 § VI. nos. 1–7, and as “Book of Hymns for singing” on pp. 530 and 535–36. Aside from these specific references to the known
beginning of the Hôr Book of Breathing, no other ˙£.t-™ m ß™y.t is found. Seyffarth misunderstood the word “beginning” as “the book” (supposedly equalling Coptic ¸Íͺ™ ÷™), and contra the implication of Gee, the term ß™y.t (literally, “letter”) does not typically designate “books” other than the “Books of Breathing.” The term “invocation” attributed to Seyffarth appears in the St. Louis Museum catalogue of 1855 and 1859:


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30121&hilit=Ritner&start=21

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