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 Post subject: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Saints
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:29 am 
Dragon
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More Swedish problems...

Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr.
(Assistant Church Historian)
Date: November 28, 2010
Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden.
Transcript updated: 7/17/2013

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/upl ... m_2010.pdf (this link is dead)

http://www.mormondoctrine.net/wp-conten ... m_2010.pdf (here is a new one)

(I'm not sure if this has been posted or not...)

Note (7-22-2013): I have a source that says they are getting the audio to this. I'll link it here when and if they come through.

Here is the audio... http://www.mediafire.com/download/ot7rh ... -part1.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/download/xif11 ... -part2.mp3


Download it before it disappears...

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Last edited by grindael on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:50 am 
God
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Fascinating. Thanks for posting.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:31 pm 
the very elect
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Saved, before LDS Inc makes it disappear.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:21 am 
God
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Worked my way through the transcript.
I could really feel the frustration of the Swedes as question after question went unanswered.
Far as I can tell the church leaders traveled 36 hours out of their way to answer the groups questions with:

-We have the answer but we just don't have time to explain
-We're working on it
-I hope to know the answer to that someday

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:24 am 
God
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Willy Law wrote:
Worked my way through the transcript.
I could really feel the frustration of the Swedes as question after question went unanswered.
Far as I can tell the church leaders traveled 36 hours out of their way to answer the groups questions with:

-We have the answer but we just don't have time to explain
-We're working on it
-I hope to know the answer to that someday


Yup... you could tell some of them were getting irritated.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:30 am 
God

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Wow, at best they regurgitated stuff from common apologetic arguments. In seriousness, why not cut out the middleman and send an apologist instead? These men, allegedly called by God and directed by God have no answers. No special insights. Expect platitudes from them, nothing more.


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:34 am 
God
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I have now read the transcript of the meeting held with Richard Turley and Marlin Jensen.
Basically it's them clarifying what the main questions are. That's it. No answers really, just a lot of ducking and diving and a promise to come back with answers.

Then I read the supposed response in which these questions were dealt with in the letter sent in March 2012 (remember the meeting at which they established what the key questions were was 15 months previous). What a joke.

They provide no answers whatsoever.
Just an instruction to read some pro Church websites which carry the disclaimer that they do not represent the official position of the Church and what amounts to "put it on the shelf". Utterly reprehensible. The Church will not succeed in Sweden, not now, not ever. The Church had a chance, and when challenged to be truthful and accurate, was disingenuous and shifty.

Turley and Jensen ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Gods representatives? No chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:39 am 
God

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Why did they send historians? Don't the people who have the keys know the history?

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:03 am 
God
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harmony wrote:
Why did they send historians? Don't the people who have the keys know the history?



They sent the man who said this in 2008....

Quote:
In a February 25, 2008 press release about the new Church Historian's Press publishing the Joseph Smith Papers, Jensen offered instruction on how to approach church history. He asked for LDS historians to "not be in an apologetic mode, but to be as open, candid and fair about our own history as we can". They should foster a culture of mutual openness with the general historical community. Jensen observed "greater dialogue coming about, less suspicion and a greater openness that is coming to pass".


...who went on, in 2012, to be in apologetic mode, not open, nor candid, nor fair in his letter labelled "The Swedish Rescue".
Shortly before being shoved into the background as an 'emeritus' authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:07 am 
God

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Bazooka wrote:
harmony wrote:
Why did they send historians? Don't the people who have the keys know the history?



They sent the man who said this in 2008....

Quote:
In a February 25, 2008 press release about the new Church Historian's Press publishing the Joseph Smith Papers, Jensen offered instruction on how to approach church history. He asked for LDS historians to "not be in an apologetic mode, but to be as open, candid and fair about our own history as we can". They should foster a culture of mutual openness with the general historical community. Jensen observed "greater dialogue coming about, less suspicion and a greater openness that is coming to pass".


...who went on, in 2012, to be in apologetic mode, not open, nor candid, nor fair in his letter labelled "The Swedish Rescue".
Shortly before being shoved into the background as an 'emeritus' authority.


He held no keys. Were the Swedes so unimportant, they weren't worth sending someone who actually held the keys, who is sustained by the members as one who holds the keys?

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(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:12 am 
God
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harmony wrote:
He held no keys. Were the Swedes so unimportant, they weren't worth sending someone who actually held the keys, who is sustained by the members as one who holds the keys?


He had the keys to the library!

There's hardly any active Swedish Members, perhaps enough to warrant a letter being sent 15 months after the questions were first asked, but a personal visit from an Apostle? Don't be silly they have important matters to attend to...1...2...3...Let's Go Shopping.....

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:18 am 
God

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Bazooka wrote:
harmony wrote:
He held no keys. Were the Swedes so unimportant, they weren't worth sending someone who actually held the keys, who is sustained by the members as one who holds the keys?


He had the keys to the library!

There's hardly any active Swedish Members, perhaps enough to warrant a letter being sent 15 months after the questions were first asked, but a personal visit from an Apostle? Don't be silly they have important matters to attend to...1...2...3...Let's Go Shopping.....


And now it's gone viral. Onto the front page of the Sunday New York Times, for pete's sake.

That's what happens when you don't take care of the little things; they turn into big things that require a lot more attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:22 am 
God
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harmony wrote:
And now it's gone viral. Onto the front page of the Sunday New York Times, for pete's sake.

That's what happens when you don't take care of the little things; they turn into big things that require a lot more attention.


It's interesting that the Church couldn't save an Area Authority who had fully committed his life to the Church.
The Church's only response to members finding out awkward truths is to try and make it harder for members to find out those awkward truths.

And this from a Church that teaches....
Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:29 am 
God
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grindael wrote:
More Swedish problems...

Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr.
(Assistant Church Historian)
Date: November 28, 2010
Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden.
Transcript updated: 7/17/2013

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/upl ... m_2010.pdf

(I'm not sure if this has been posted or not...)

Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:42 am 
Star B

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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
grindael wrote:
More Swedish problems...

Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr.
(Assistant Church Historian)
Date: November 28, 2010
Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden.
Transcript updated: 7/17/2013

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/upl ... m_2010.pdf

(I'm not sure if this has been posted or not...)

Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.


I read it too and I found it fascinating. I was astonished at the tenacity of those who were asking the questions - they wouldn't let go and they wouldn't accept woolly answers. It's no wonder Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:50 am 
God
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annie wrote:
... Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.


Really? So he can give a questioner pretty well any damn' answer he pleases, and the questioner (who may well have done a fair bit of background research) can say nothing to indicate to others present that they are being fed BS.

I'd call that 'running scared' myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 am 
Star B

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Chap wrote:
annie wrote:
... Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.


Really? So he can give a questioner pretty well any damn' answer he pleases, and the questioner (who may well have done a fair bit of background research) can say nothing to indicate to others present that they are being fed BS.

I'd call that 'running scared' myself.


Me too :)


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:16 am 
God
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
grindael wrote:
More Swedish problems...

Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr.
(Assistant Church Historian)
Date: November 28, 2010
Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden.
Transcript updated: 7/17/2013

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/upl ... m_2010.pdf

(I'm not sure if this has been posted or not...)

Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.

What did the Swedes do to bring MJ and RT to the fireside?

Can we do it too in North America? (I wonder who would be sent to the fireside here - they should wear asbestos suits.)

We could even invite the New York Times to send a reporter.

To be serious, though, I expect that the Swedish fireside was a one-off - I'm sure that the 15 learned something from the experience, and without a total change of heart they will never allow a repeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:23 am 
God

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The transcript has been removed.

From John Dehlin in the comments section.

Quote:
Hey all – For the record, I spoke with someone at church headquarters (a friend) who expressed concern about my sharing the Jensen/Turley transcript without permission (from the standpoint of Mormon Stories and my own relationship to the church), so I decided to take it down.

Sorry for the change. This is a tough line/balance to walk for me, but I feel like this is the best decision after talking w/ my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:33 am 
Speaking of running scared...


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 Post subject: Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:38 am 
God
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Sammy Jankins wrote:
The transcript has been removed.

From John Dehlin in the comments section.

Quote:
Hey all – For the record, I spoke with someone at church headquarters (a friend) who expressed concern about my sharing the Jensen/Turley transcript without permission (from the standpoint of Mormon Stories and my own relationship to the church), so I decided to take it down.

Sorry for the change. This is a tough line/balance to walk for me, but I feel like this is the best decision after talking w/ my friend.


Oh for god sake. Really? Really Dehlin? And just why is the church upset about posting the transcript? Does everything Mormon have to be done in the shadows?

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