harmony wrote:He held no keys. Were the Swedes so unimportant, they weren't worth sending someone who actually held the keys, who is sustained by the members as one who holds the keys?
He had the keys to the library!
There's hardly any active Swedish Members, perhaps enough to warrant a letter being sent 15 months after the questions were first asked, but a personal visit from an Apostle? Don't be silly they have important matters to attend to...1...2...3...Let's Go Shopping.....
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
harmony wrote:He held no keys. Were the Swedes so unimportant, they weren't worth sending someone who actually held the keys, who is sustained by the members as one who holds the keys?
He had the keys to the library!
There's hardly any active Swedish Members, perhaps enough to warrant a letter being sent 15 months after the questions were first asked, but a personal visit from an Apostle? Don't be silly they have important matters to attend to...1...2...3...Let's Go Shopping.....
And now it's gone viral. Onto the front page of the Sunday NY Times, for pete's sake.
That's what happens when you don't take care of the little things; they turn into big things that require a lot more attention.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
harmony wrote:And now it's gone viral. Onto the front page of the Sunday NY Times, for pete's sake.
That's what happens when you don't take care of the little things; they turn into big things that require a lot more attention.
It's interesting that the Church couldn't save an Area Authority who had fully committed his life to the Church. The Church's only response to members finding out awkward truths is to try and make it harder for members to find out those awkward truths.
And this from a Church that teaches.... Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr. (Assistant Church Historian) Date: November 28, 2010 Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden. Transcript updated: 7/17/2013
Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr. (Assistant Church Historian) Date: November 28, 2010 Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden. Transcript updated: 7/17/2013
Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.
I read it too and I found it fascinating. I was astonished at the tenacity of those who were asking the questions - they wouldn't let go and they wouldn't accept woolly answers. It's no wonder Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.
annie wrote: ... Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.
Really? So he can give a questioner pretty well any damn' answer he pleases, and the questioner (who may well have done a fair bit of background research) can say nothing to indicate to others present that they are being fed BS.
I'd call that 'running scared' myself.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
annie wrote: ... Terryl Givens only allowed one question per person and no come-backs in his recent firesides.
Really? So he can give a questioner pretty well any damn' answer he pleases, and the questioner (who may well have done a fair bit of background research) can say nothing to indicate to others present that they are being fed BS.
Speakers: Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr. (Assistant Church Historian) Date: November 28, 2010 Location: Västerhaninge Chapel; Stockholm, Sweden. Transcript updated: 7/17/2013
Thanks for the link. I've read the 36-page transcript, and I am speechless (well, almost). The Swedes asked very tough questions, and they continued to ask the questions even when Jensen and Turley did their best to dodge. Overall, I think the meeting was an utter fail for the Church -- I can't imagine any doubting member who went into that meeting coming out feeling any better about their doubts. Jensen and Turley simply didn't answer their questions, which didn't surprise me because they were very TOUGH questions and the Swedish members would not back down. Simply an amazing meeting, and the Times article confirms just how bad things are for the Church in Sweden right now.
What did the Swedes do to bring MJ and RT to the fireside?
Can we do it too in North America? (I wonder who would be sent to the fireside here - they should wear asbestos suits.)
We could even invite the NYT to send a reporter.
To be serious, though, I expect that the Swedish fireside was a one-off - I'm sure that the 15 learned something from the experience, and without a total change of heart they will never allow a repeat.
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Hey all – For the record, I spoke with someone at church headquarters (a friend) who expressed concern about my sharing the Jensen/Turley transcript without permission (from the standpoint of Mormon Stories and my own relationship to the church), so I decided to take it down.
Sorry for the change. This is a tough line/balance to walk for me, but I feel like this is the best decision after talking w/ my friend.