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 Post subject: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Since not-a-cafeteria-Mormon Nelson Chung, bcspace, and others remind everyone so much that one can totally reject the doctrine of a global flood, accept the theory of evolution, and yet still be in complete harmony with the revealed truths of the restored gospel, I though it would be fun to review a few things that are false if the global flood doctrine is not true, the Tower of Babel story is not true, and/or evolution is true. Anyone, feel free to add to this list:

--the need for a savior from physical death
--the plausibility that the extraterrestrial demigod Elohim, who lived out his mortal life on another planet, is a primate just like the humans who evolved according to the specific conditions of this planet
--the Doctrine and Covenants
--the Book of Mormon
--the Book of Abraham
--the Book of Moses
--the idea that the current leaders of the LDS Church can understand the difference between their personal beliefs/opinions and truths revealed from God
--the idea that past Mormon leaders could understand the difference between their personal beliefs/ideas and truths revealed from God
--the need for a savior from sin, since there would have been no Fall if human beings had been living, reproducing, and dying for thousands of years before Adam and Eve allegedly left the Garden of Eden
--the idea of a pure Adamic language that Joseph Smith taught
--the idea of the priesthood being a patriarchal order that started with Adam
--the Mormon doctrine that prior to the Second Coming, all the Saints will meet at Adam-ondi-ahman to link priesthood keys back to Adam (see above)
--the doctrine that Adam-ondi-ahman has any basis in reality (the LDS Church owns the land and has placards identifying it as Adam-ondi-ahman, and the D&C contains a revelation identifying that area as Adam-ondi-ahman)
--Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead that was canonized in the D&C, which confirms that everyone on Earth except the passengers on Noah's ark died in a global flood
--the doctrine of human existence being divided into priesthood dispensations that began with Adam
--the doctrine that marriage is a divine institution that Elohim initiated in the Garden of Eden, as opposed to marriage being a human-created social and legal construct
--the doctrine that Adam and Eve were given a choice to experience mortality and death, which is the closest thing to a theodicy Mormonism offers (suffering happens because of free agency and because we need to experience it to become gods, as opposed to suffering and death just being things that arise out of nature)
--the doctrine that all living things were created spiritually before they were created physically (why would an organism spiritually exist forever in a form adapted to conditions of a specific environment and time on Earth?)

Anyway, there is a start. Just some minor, tangential things that are not central to the message of the restored gospel.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:48 pm 
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The belief that the earth possesses intelligence, is fallen, was baptized, and will be renewed and receive it's paradisiacal glory. Because these things are necessary parts of the plan of salvation for humans as they are of "spheres".

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Since not-a-cafeteria-Mormon Nelson Chung, bcspace, and others remind everyone so much that one can totally reject the doctrine of a global flood, accept the theory of evolution, and yet still be in complete harmony with the revealed truths of the restored gospel,


I have never said that. While I don't believe I am wrong about the global Food actually being local, I certainly could be wrong. In addition, there is no conflict with LDS doctrine and evolution.

Quote:
Anyone, feel free to add to this list:


Apples to oranges. You are proposing harmony by rejecting such things whereas I freely admit I am out of harmony by rejecting the global Flood doctrine. Huge difference.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:15 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Since not-a-cafeteria-Mormon Nelson Chung, bcspace, and others remind everyone so much that one can totally reject the doctrine of a global flood, accept the theory of evolution, and yet still be in complete harmony with the revealed truths of the restored gospel,


I have never said that. While I don't believe I am wrong about the global Food actually being local, I certainly could be wrong. In addition, there is no conflict with LDS doctrine and evolution.


And neither is there any conflict between LDS doctrine and promiscuous gay sex. Also, the Church has no official position as to whether Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Quote:
Quote:
Anyone, feel free to add to this list:


Apples to oranges. You are proposing harmony by rejecting such things whereas I freely admit I am out of harmony by rejecting the global Flood doctrine. Huge difference.


I am not proposing harmony. I am listing things that are necessarily also wrong if the global flood is wrong and evolution is true.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:17 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
While I don't believe I am wrong about the global Food actually being local, I certainly could be wrong.

Is this some sort of stealth marketing campaign for Whole Foods?

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
bcspace wrote:
While I don't believe I am wrong about the global Food actually being local, I certainly could be wrong.

Is this some sort of stealth marketing campaign for Whole Foods?

I think so, later he mentions apples and oranges.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:25 pm 
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And now you know why the spell checker didn't catch it. "Food" is a perfectly cromulent word.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:31 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
And now you know why the spell checker didn't catch it. "Food" is a perfectly cromulent word.

I'm still wondering why you capitalized it, though. Lower case "global", upper case "Food/Flood"? Unless you were emphasizing the word in which case local, global, and Food in the same sentence seems pretty suspicious to me... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:35 pm 
Darth wrote:
--the need for a savior from physical death


Could you please explain how discounting the global flood and accepting evolution means that this is not true?


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Yoda wrote:
Darth wrote:
--the need for a savior from physical death


Could you please explain how discounting the global flood and accepting evolution means that this is not true?


If evolution is accepted, it means there was no created man - no Adam. And therefore, no Fall. Thus, no need for an atonement.

H.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:51 pm 
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Yoda wrote:
Darth wrote:
--the need for a savior from physical death


Could you please explain how discounting the global flood and accepting evolution means that this is not true?


I'll let Joseph Fielding Smith explain it to you in an LDS Old Testament manual (italics and ellipses in original):

CES Manual: Old Testament, Section 2-18

“Of course, I think those people who hold to the view that man has come up through all these ages from the scum of the sea through billions of years do not believe in Adam. Honestly I do not know how they can, and I am going to show you that they do not. There are some who attempt to do it but they are inconsistent—absolutely inconsistent, because that doctrine is so incompatible, so utterly out of harmony, with the revelations of the Lord that a man just cannot believe in both.

“. . . I say most emphatically, you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man, and at the same time accept the plan of salvation as set forth by the Lord our God. You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so. . . .

“. . . Then Adam, and by that I mean the first man, was not capable of sin. He could not transgress, and by doing so bring death into the world; for, according to this theory, death had always been in the world. If, therefore, there was no fall, there was no need of an atonement, hence the coming into the world of the Son of God as the Savior of the world is a contradiction, a thing impossible. Are you prepared to believe such a thing as that?” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:141–42.)

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:56 pm 
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LDSToronto wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Could you please explain how discounting the global flood and accepting evolution means that this is not true?
If evolution is accepted, it means there was no created man - no Adam. And therefore, no Fall. Thus, no need for an atonement.

H.
LDSToronto is correct. However, I don't think any Mormon should think about it like that at all. God creating Adam and casting him into this biosphere (inhabited with other humans) as a result of the fall is still perfectly reasonable. This is how cafeteria Mormons should think about the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:02 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
LDSToronto is correct. However, I don't think any Mormon should think about it like that at all. God creating Adam and casting him into this biosphere (inhabited with other humans) as a result of the fall is still perfectly reasonable. This is how cafeteria Mormons should think about the issue.


Then there was no physical death for Jesus to save us from, and death was not the result of transgression, so there is no sin to save us from, so the entire Mormon concept of the atonement collapses.

This is what happens when self-described Mormons are so desperate to reconcile their fables with reality that they miss the point of the religion they think they are salvaging.

And why doesn't Tobin just start his own church? Oh, that's right: because I can already watch reruns of Star Trek to get my theological truths.

And no, ad hoc meta-mythology attempting to save ancient fables by turning them into space operas is not "perfectly reasonable."

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:51 pm 
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LDSToronto wrote:

If evolution is accepted, it means there was no created man - no Adam. And therefore, no Fall. Thus, no need for an atonement.

H.


I do not see how a single item in this series follows from the prior statement . All I can see is a collection of unrelated opinions.

no need for an atonement, sure this world is the very kingdom of god every day all day long. (???)

I may regret saying this as the subject has been aired before and to not much point. I am wllling to discuss but it might be just as well to just notice different people see this differently..

I could understand a statement like this. , I think that evolution means there is no God and if there is no God then no God can make atonement for us. I do not agree with the no God part but I can see a logical connection between the parts of the proposal.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:46 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:

If evolution is accepted, it means there was no created man - no Adam. And therefore, no Fall. Thus, no need for an atonement.

H.


I do not see how a single item in this series follows from the prior statement . All I can see is a collection of unrelated opinions.

no need for an atonement, sure this world is the very kingdom of god every day all day long. (???)

I may regret saying this as the subject has been aired before and to not much point. I am wllling to discuss but it might be just as well to just notice different people see this differently..

I could understand a statement like this. , I think that evolution means there is no God and if there is no God then no God can make atonement for us. I do not agree with the no God part but I can see a logical connection between the parts of the proposal.


We're talking about specifically about the LDS doctrine about the atonement of Jesus Christ. This thread is not suggesting that evolution precludes belief in a God (Abarahamic or otherwise) or a belief in Jesus Christ (keeping in mind that Christians have many different beliefs about how exactly Jesus saved the world). However, LDS doctrine and the LDS concept of the atonement operate in a very specific framework that assumes the Adam and Eve story is literally true and that there was no death or reproduction at all on the Earth, nor any other human beings on Earth, prior to Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden.

ETA: and everything I said goes out the window does so because they purport to be modern revelation confirming the literalness of these events. The entire LDS narrative of human origins and history is based on the alleged reality of these events. Tell me, for example, how D&C 116 (identifying Spring Hill, MO as Adam-ondi-ahman) could be a real revelation from God if Adam never really existed. And how Joseph Smith was a real prophet if he is either delusional or lying in claiming to be receiving revelations about a person who never existed and events that never happened.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:28 am 
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Without wishing to put words in bcspace's mouth, I believe he has acknowledged in the past that he is a certain percentage apostate in his views and beliefs. If I'm not mistaken I think he estimated that he was circa 5% apostate - which was, in his eyes, perfectly acceptable for a member in good standing.

That may be accurate given this official explanation by the Church on what constitutes an "apostate".
Quote:
“Members of the Church vary in their levels of participation or belief. Latter-day Saints who have seriously contravened or ignored cardinal Church teachings (publicly or privately) are considered apostates, whether or not they have officially left the Church or affiliated with another religion” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism [1992], 1:59).
http://www.lds.org/topics/apostate?lang=eng

The question then becomes two questions:
1. What constitutes a 'cardinal Church teaching'?
2. (Once question 1 has been comprehensively answered) What constitutes a 'serious contravention' of those teachings?

One for bcspace; At what percentage of apostasy would a 'member in good standing' become a 'member not in good standing'?

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:27 am 
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LDSToronto wrote:
If evolution is accepted, it means there was no created man - no Adam. And therefore, no Fall. Thus, no need for an atonement.

H.


Wrong....

Evolution can be accepted while not accepting some "theory's" of evolution.

Further, if there were Pre-Adamites, it further doesn't pose a problem for Adam, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:30 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Evolution can be accepted while not accepting some "theory's" of evolution.

Please provide an example for clarification.

Quote:
Further, if there were Pre-Adamites, it further doesn't pose a problem for Adam, etc.

It kind of does...

Quote:
Now the earth was ready for the greatest creation of all—mankind. Our spirits would be given bodies of flesh and blood so they could live on earth. “And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so” (Moses 2:26). And so the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, were formed and given bodies that resembled those of our heavenly parents. “In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:27). When the Lord finished His creations, He was pleased and knew that His work was good, and He rested for a time.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-5-the-creation?lang=eng

Quote:
Adam and Eve were chosen to be the first people to live on the earth (see Moses 1:34; 4:26). Their part in our Father’s plan was to bring mortality into the world. They were to be the first parents. (See D&C 107:54–56.)

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princi ... e?lang=eng

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:34 am 
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The "Doctrine" is that there was a Flood.... Period.

Most "interpret" that doctrine as being the Entire earth given the statements said about it.
However, given the way scripture sometimes works, that interpretation could be wrong, thus it still COULD mean that the flood was "local" and not the entire earth.

Entire earth could easily have meant from "their" perspective it was the entire earth, the same way's the Bible and the Book of Mormon explains areas being free of people when they really weren't.

Further, most who believe the flood may have been local are not "beholden" to it.
We don't say "this or nothing"..... Thus, to say we are "apostates" is stupid, because we are OPEN to it being either way. Further, we acknowledge that given the facts of the flood story, such a "temporary" event would in fact have little scientific evidence for it any more than a rain storm, and the polar ice caps could in fact be remnants of that flood water being withdrawn.

In other words, we are not "dogmatic" either way. We simply hold that it's "more likely" that the flood was local, but we are STILL open to either way.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:37 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
The "Doctrine" is that there was a Flood.... Period.

Most "interpret" that doctrine as being the Entire earth given the statements said about it.
However, given the way scripture sometimes works, that interpretation could be wrong, thus it still COULD mean that the flood was "local" and not the entire earth.

Entire earth could easily have meant from "their" perspective it was the entire earth, the same way's the Bible and the Book of Mormon explains areas being free of people when they really weren't.

Further, most who believe the flood may have been local are not "beholden" to it.
We don't say "this or nothing"..... Thus, to say we are "apostates" is stupid, because we are OPEN to it being either way. Further, we acknowledge that given the facts of the flood story, such a "temporary" event would in fact have little scientific evidence for it any more than a rain storm, and the polar ice caps could in fact be remnants of that flood water being withdrawn.

In other words, we are not "dogmatic" either way. We simply hold that it's "more likely" that the flood was local, but we are STILL open to either way.


Wrong.

The doctrine is global flood. Period.

Quote:
30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will adestroy all flesh from off the earth.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/8?lang=eng

Quote:
Moses 8; Genesis 6—Why the Lord Flooded the Earth

President John Taylor helped explain why the Lord decided to destroy all people on earth except the family of Noah. President Taylor suggested that the world was so wicked that children grew up with no choice but to be wicked. At that point where there is no chance to choose righteousness, sending innocent spirits from heaven to earth is no longer just. Consequently, the Lord destroyed all the wicked and began again with the family of Noah to raise up righteous men and women.

http://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament ... 8?lang=eng

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 Post subject: Re: LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:43 am 
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Bazooka wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
Evolution can be accepted while not accepting some "theory's" of evolution.

Please provide an example for clarification.


Man evolved from Apes.... A false theory.

Quote:
Quote:
Further, if there were Pre-Adamites, it further doesn't pose a problem for Adam, etc.

It kind of does...


Actually it doesn't.....

Adam and Eve were put into the Garden of Eden.
When they ate of the fruit they were cast into the Lone and Dreary world, and the way to the Garden the Tree of Life was blocked. Then very quickly out of no where Cain etc. has this big family.

In other words, there easily could have been a world separate from Adam's line that had already existed, that had men in it.

I know the "traditional" interpretations..... But, if you know the Apostles historical battles of this issue, you'll know that they've both acknowledged "neither" interpretation is actually official doctrine. They are interpretations.

The only actual doctrine is that Adam/Eve were God's chosen lineage people made in his image, spiritually begotten of him.
In fact, the Bible even seems to indicate these "other" men, in statements like, daughters of men, etc.


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