First off, let me say that I believed as a Mormon that I felt the Holy Ghost. I know many exmos didn't have the experience of a burning bosom or hearing that Still Small Voice, but I believed I did. Not only did I feel a sense of peace, clarity of thought, and a wash of emotion when I bore my testimony, I felt it in other places as well. I felt it when out in nature. I felt it at the Catholic wedding of a good friend. I felt it when I held my babies and they wrapped their tiny hands around my little finger. I even felt it at a rock concert once.

The problem with the Holy Ghost began when I discovered troubling aspects of Mormon history. I prayed and prayed to feel better about Joseph Smith marrying other mens' wives, but no comfort from the Spirit came. I prayed harder and with more fervor and intent than I'd ever before prayed when I asked God about the Book of Abraham to see if it were true and if Joseph Smith really translated it in the way he claimed. But the Holy Ghost was silent. He just wouldn't comfort me. He wouldn't help me resolve my dilemma.

Finally, I was in a state of almost constant despair. I was praying night and day for comfort. I felt sick all the time. So one night in October, I prayed and told God I no longer believed Mormonism was true. I laid it all out for Him. And you know what? I had the most powerful spiritual witness of my life that night. At least I felt like I did. I told my husband I knew the Church wasn't true and months of sheer hell followed. My husband was livid. Thankfully, hell didn't last too long. My husband eventually left the church and our whole family turned in our resignation letters together.

After leaving Mormonism, I still experienced what felt like the Holy Ghost, but I learned that other people experienced it, too. Catholics experience it. And it confirms to them that they're in the True Church. Muslims believe Allah has let them know Islam is the true path to God. Pentecostals believe the Holy Ghost causes them to speak in tongues. Are they experiencing the Holy Ghost? Does He tell everyone what they want to hear - that their beliefs are correct? Or is that feeling not really any supernatural being speaking to people's hearts at all, but instead something all too human, something chemical, biological? I think it is.

People who claim knowledge from the Holy Ghost always say they KNOW it was the Holy Ghost speaking to them and not simply an emotional experience. Everyone claims that. How, then, can one discern the Spirit from emotions or even delusions? Do Mormons who claim knowledge of things via the whisperings of an unbodied member of the Godhead think they've got the real Holy Ghost and every other religionist has a fake one who tells them untruths?

How can one know feelings, thoughts, clarity of thought, peace or emotion are from a supernatural being? I have those experiences now. I have moments of clear thought where I learn something new about myself or the world around me and I think it's attributable to something internal, like brain synapses firing in just the right way, not something external, like the Holy Ghost.

So, I ask again, if you believe in the Holy Ghost, how do you know He's speaking to you? How do you distinguish His voice from other emotions? And how do you explain His telling different people different things, usually confirming their own rightness?

Curious,

KA

These are good questions, KA, and I don't really have time to address this as thoroughly as I would like to, so I'll share a few thoughts now, and hopefully some a little later when I have more time.

I do believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to us, comforts us, and confirms things to us.

However, I don't think that Mormons have the only ability to receive these confirmations. This is why, in my estimation, I have always felt that there is more than one pathway back to God.

I think that God wants us to be happy and is going to help guide us in the direction that will ultimately help our families and our individual needs.

Let me ask you this. Have you been happier since you have left Mormonism?

Has your overall relationship with your family been healthier and have you developed a better sense of self?

From the things you have shared here, my guess is that your answers to these questions would be an affirming "yes".

It sounds like Mormonism was stifling you, and the Lord knew this, so He offered you a different path.

For some, Mormonism works great. For others, it's not so great.

When you did feel these moments of peace and comfort, were you doing anything that would be considered morally wrong or harmful to yourself or others?

No.

You experienced these feelings during precious, comforting, "spiritual" times. You were communing with nature....during the birth of your children.

I have to go back to my "day job" and lecture some more, but I'll continue my thoughts later.

Great thread!

:)

I posed this question to schryver in another thread (did you steal my idea?). :)



They know, because they've experienced something that benefits or enlightens them, and they've been taught that it's the holy ghost (whereas otherwise they might not know what caused it).

Yes, it's quite circular.

We're telling you the truth.
You can know this because if you pray you'll get a good feeling from the Holy Ghost confirming that we're telling you the truth.
How do you know it's the Holy Ghost? Because we're telling you the truth.

I didn't mean to steal it, Who Knows! I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and it basically started way back when I wrote the post about Mormon arrogance and then continued with Coggins's post about me moving to Delphi, lol! So many Mormons claim to know things via revelation from the Holy Ghost, so I'm interested in knowing how they even know the Holy Ghost is speaking to them in the first place.

I noticed your post and Will's reply after I started this thread. I think Will and I posted at exactly the same time. His reply to you was better than most Mormon replies to the question. I wonder if he'd mind copy/pasting his reply here? It certainly answers my question as well as yours.

Hopefully you can forgive me for inadvertently stealing your idea since you're probably still raking in the money selling those pics of me on the beach. :P

KA

KA - I was just kidding with you. I just feel validated that someone else had a similar idea that I did.

As far as the pics go, I decided not to sell them. I'm treasuring them all for myself. ;)

KA, I have a theory about this. I shared it on MAD once, and I'll paraphrase it here.

Most LDS, when pressed on how they know it's the spirit and not just a good feeling, will usually say something to the effect that the spirit is SO much more powerful than a "good feeling". That, if you had felt it, you would most assuredly know that it was, indeed, the spirit. Absolutely no way to deny it.

Now, lets contrast that with someone that has clinical depression. Or clinical rage. We all feel depression and anger to some level, but those that are diagnosed with true clinical cases of depression and rage would say the same thing as a TBM. That the depression/anger that they feel is SO much stronger than what we feel.

If there is a gene that predisposes people to feel depression and anger at these intense levels, why is it so hard to believe that a similar gene doesn't exist for feeling good feelings/the spirit? This would also explain why the majority of us just feel good feelings without this overwhelming sensation that is so much more powerful.

These feelings may lie dormant for a long time in some people, until some event unleashes these emotions. Even after they are unleashed, there are trigger events that may cause them to re-appear, and often they grow stronger each time. The same goes for the spirit. Perhaps this predetermined genetic behaviour has been lying dormant for a long time, and when the missionaries come a knockin, it unleashes the feelings of "the spirit". Then, by reading scriptures, praying, etc., you know...trigger actions, the feelings will come back. Even stronger.

The same could be said for the death of a loved one. This event could unleash a genetic predisposition to depression, and send the person into a downward spiral.

So, for those that claim to KNOW it's the spirit, I call BS. I think they very strongly BELIEVE it's the spirit, but they can't know.

And the reason they believe that is that they've been told to believe it.

Hi, Scottie.

I call BS, too, and also earlier called BS on Cogg's claim to know with a perfect certainty that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ and that Mormonism is true. Understandably, he thinks he knows those things by the power of the Holy Ghost. I believed that too, when I was a Mormon.

Still, I'm interested in how the LDS themselves believe they distinguish the spirit from mere feelings. I remember pondering that question myself several years ago while still a member.

KA

Here are some answers I've gotten to the question:

1. If you'd felt the spirit, you wouldn't have to ask.
2. It's much more than mere feelings; it's a really strong feeling.
3. Are you saying I'm delusional?
4. You need to humble yourself.

If I had a quarter for every time I heard that one...

Per Kimberly Ann’s request, and because my heart is still twitterpated at the recollection of her in slinky black dress, I am posting my reply from the other thread, along with the reply I made to Ryan’s subsequent questions:

I confess that I used to be kind of a Star Trek devotee. Not when they were shown originally, but much later, when they were in syndicated reruns. Some of them were downright silly. But others actually had some depth and considerable import to them. At least I felt like I could glean something of real significance from them.

There is one episode that I found fascinating. I think it was called Spock’s Brain. The premise was kind of silly: some aliens (all female) appear and steal Spock’s brain, take it to their underground living quarters, and proceed to wire it up as their central control unit. Of course, Kirk and McCoy must somehow reunite Spock’s brain with his still-functioning body. So they locate the brain and demand that the aliens put it back in. The women appear, but they’re all manifestly incapable of doing anything so complex. The woman who is the leader, when pressed for answers, makes reference to “The Teacher.” Well, it turns out that “The Teacher” is some kind of a device that can be placed on one’s head, and after it performs its function, it can then be removed and the recipient of its effect is immediately endowed with stupendous amounts of knowledge and understanding. It was by this means that the leader woman was able to remove Spock’s brain and install it as their control unit. However, the effect doesn’t last very long, and so after a while, the woman resumed her normal level of knowledge, understanding, and capacities.

Well, she refuses to use “The Teacher” in order to restore Spock’s brain, and therefore Kirk orders McCoy to attempt it. McCoy ultimately consents, places the unit on his head, and after a few moments where it looks like the device will fry his brain, it is removed, and his eyes light up. He immediately commences the operation on Spock, exclaiming, “Why, it’s so simple, a child could do it.”

He works feverishly for several minutes, brimming with confidence and complete self-assurance. However, after a while, you can see uncertainty begin to sweep over his countenance, and before long he is perspiring heavily and consumed with self-doubt.

Of course, the effect of “The Teacher” has worn off. And he just can’t put it back on his head. He is left to his own devices to bridge the gap between how far he has gotten and how far he still has to go.

Well, of course, the script dictates that Spock’s brain be restored, and McCoy manages to restore Spock’s speech center, and with Spock’s assistance, the operation is completed successfully.

Now, what am I driving at here?

Well, many people have suggested that the effect of the Holy Ghost is simply some warm, fuzzy, peaceful, or comforting feeling. Many people here who no longer believe in the “Restored Gospel” nonetheless report having felt just such feelings during their tenure as believing Latter-day Saints.

I suppose I have felt such feelings myself at times. But, to me, that is not what I associate with the Holy Ghost; not what I would characterize as the basis of my knowledge. Rather, the experiences I have had that I associate with the “Holy Ghost” are very similar in nature to what that episode of Star Trek is hinting at with its “Teacher” device. It is a clarity of thought, an infusion of pure intelligence, a confident “knowing” of something. However, just like the effect of “The Teacher” on Dr. McCoy, the effect of the Holy Ghost does not last indefinitely. What was it that Joseph Smith wrote?



And Jesus said to Nicodemus:



And yet, Nicodemus was confused, and answered, “How can these things be?” To which, Jesus then replied:



In my life experience, there is nothing that has been as real, as authentic as those fleeting moments when that supremely unique influence has “descended” upon me. Would that I could bottle it and drink of it at will. But it cannot be done. Not here. Not now. I wish it could be. It would make things so much easier. Instead, I am forced to wade through the doubts, just like Dr. McCoy did, and somehow find a way to bridge the gap between my doubts and fears and the next strengthening – the next knowing experience that blows my way.

That bridge is built with faith. But it is not blind faith. It is faith based on the solid recollection of what was once seen clearly, but is now only seen through a glass darkly.

That is how I know things.



Then:

Who Knows:


I never said that I know it is the Holy Ghost. What I described were:


I was describing my experience; the type of thing that I have come to associate with the term “Holy Ghost.” The intelligence I have received during those kinds of experiences is what I bank on in my life.

Look, people can choose to rely on whatever means is at their disposal in their search for knowledge, truth, and meaning. I’m simply telling you that I have had experiences such as I describe above, and that I have concluded that those experiences are consequent to an external influence (which I call the Holy Ghost) interacting with me. I have learned to trust the things that I have learned during those experiences. I also read books, contemplate things, and engage in intellectual exchanges with others. All these things are tools I use to acquire knowledge, truth, and meaning in my life. But, in the final analysis, I have learned to trust what I call “the Holy Ghost” above all my other intelligence-acquisition tools.


I’m not sure what you mean. I am willing that all people seek knowledge, truth, and meaning in their own way; according to the dictates of their own conscience, reasoning powers, and even prejudices. It doesn’t matter to me either way. I do not doubt that there are many means utilized by people around the globe (and throughout this galaxy and beyond) to acquire intelligence. I’m simply speaking of my experience, in response to the question posed at the beginning of this thread.


No doubt they would.


I don’t. That is, I don’t know that they’re wrong. I don’t even think about it, really. As far as my conviction of being “right” is concerned, I’m not sure that would even be an accurate characterization of what I feel about my knowledge. I have simply learned, within the unique parameters and circumstances of my own existence, to give my trust to the kind of intelligence I receive via my personal conduit. It speaks to me. It has relevance for me. Of those things that I claim to know, it has been the primary mechanism for their transmission. Whether they have meaning or relevance to others is beyond my capacity to determine.


How could it be otherwise?



By the way, KA, even though I get e-mails back suggesting that mine sent to you were rejected for exceeding the size limitation, they are apparently getting through to you. I sent you some more songs. I also recorded a couple of my own compositions on my keyboard this afternoon, and I sent those to you just for the heck of it.

There are a couple authoritative statements that say we CAN'T trust promptings from the Holy Ghost.

1) Joseph Smith, when he was unable to sell the copyright to the BofM in Canada after receiving revelation to do so, said some revelations are from god, some are from man, and some are from the devil.

2) Boyd K Packer gave a talk where he discussed the Holy Ghost and how Satan can disguise his promptings to feel the same as promptings from the holy ghost. THerefore, we should be wary of promptings.

Does anyone have these two references handy? I'm too lazy to look them up.

Thanks, William, for reposting that. I was a fan of the original Star Trek reruns, too, and I still love William Shatner. I watch him on Boston Legal.

Also, I thoroughly enjoyed your original compositions! You are very talented. Thank you for sending them!

SatanWasSetUp, I've heard of both examples you offered, but like you, don't remember where they come from, and unfortunately, also like you, I'm too lazy to look them up!

KA

I think of the feelings as fruits of the Spirit. I know the Spirit is there when I feel the fruits of the spirit.

I've slowly distanced myself from saying I feel the Holy Ghost. I now say that the spirit is present, or I note the spirit's influence because of the fruits that I am feeling. Does that make sense?

Of course recognizing the feelings as fruits of the spirit is a personal standard I've set in my life. I had to consciously make the decision to recognize the fruits of the spirit as genuinely from the spirit. I suppose I could have made the choice to believe that there is no afterlife, spirit, god, etc... But I think I chose to recognize the 'spirit' as the spirit because it makes me better and it makes my life better. It was kind of like coming to a fork in the road. One road was the view of life as meaningless, and would have probably would have caused a life of apathy and self gratifying activity that, let's say, would not be socially acceptable. The other road gives me reason to avoid bad self-gratifying activities, gives me reason to be positive and productive when I otherwise would probably just give up and whine, and makes me and my family happy.

You know, the answers to those questions aren't clear-cut for me. I am able to be more myself since leaving Mormonism; however, leaving took a toll on my marriage that probably hasn't been completely resolved. I'm a little different than I was as a Mormon woman. My husband has been thrown for a loop now that he's getting to know the "me" I kept subdued as a Molly Mormon wife. But, on the whole, I'm happier now than I was as a member of the Mormon church. I definitely have a better sense of self.

Most of all, I'm glad my daughters aren't Mormons. For me, no matter how difficult the process of leaving the religion into which I was born and to which I'd dedicated my life becomes, my daughters growing up without Mormonism holding them back makes it all worth it.

Here's a question for you, Liz: How do you feel about the Holy Ghost giving contradictory information to two parities? Who has the real Holy Ghost and who has the false spirit when people get what they believe to be inspiration and that inspiration is in opposition such that both revelations or promptings cannot be correct?

KA

The advice is generally good....the problem I've found is that most people who give that advice are doing it to shut you up, not help you.

Interesting theory. It doesn't explain the visual and auditory hallucinations that must be having if it's genetic though.

1) This happens all the time. However Joseph was not experienced in the Gospel when this deception came. In many ways I may have had more experience with the Spirit than Joseph had had at that point. Joseph got a crash course at first. It started with visitations and then to use his spiritual gifts he needed tools to aid him. Later on he used those tools less and less.

2) I heard that talk. If I remember correctly Pres. Packer taught that the way to discern between the two is peace. Satan can imitate the form and function of promptings but he can't imitate peace. I've been deceived by that trick. It's a feeling like a prompting but it's weird, like you're euphoric without the euphoria or calm while stressed out.

I've yet to hear one legitimate story of someone having a vision. It's always been a friend of a friend, or they heard of someone that had a vision.

My good friend swore up and down that he saw a vision of his dead uncle on his mission. Come to find out he suffered from severe sleep apnea and it WAS just a hallucination. It wasn't until he left the church that he could finally admit this to himself.

Now, this being said, I have had instances where "something" was put into my thoughts that changed my course of action and saved my life. I honestly don't think this was a random synapse firing off. I believe it was "something" helping me.

You know, if everything is true and the holy ghost is real, then that makes the Mormon God a liar.

How many people on these boards have tried and tried to get that confirmation that was PROMISED to them by Moroni, yet it never came?

Sure, apologists just LOVE to play the "you weren't [insert favorite trait here] enough" card. You know, "you were humble enough", "you didn't pray hard enough", "you didn't wait long enough", "you didn't have faith enough", etc.

This is utter bunk. Supposedly with the faith of a mustard seed, we can move mountains. But we can't get a simple yes to a simple question? I'm pretty sure most of us had at least the faith of a mustard seed, whatever that means.

And, as we all know, if God were to lie He would cease to be God. So, viola. I just proved that God doesn't exist! All in a day's work. ;)