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 Post subject: Would you die for Jesus?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:49 am 
High Priest
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Posts: 397
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I got this yesterday from Bill Keller. I know a lot of you disagree with what he says, and I do think he sometimes takes the Bible too literally, but this message made me think.

Just what is it we believe in and are we willing to take a stand if it would cost us our lives?

Excerpt from the e-mail is below:

Would you renounce Jesus to save your life? Last September the wonderful
news and answer to many prayers that Fox News reporter Steve Centanni and
his cameraman Olaf Wiig were released after being abducted at gunpoint two
weeks earlier while reporting from the Gaza Strip. One element of their release
that has not even been mentioned in all of their many post-release
interviews was the fact that just prior to being set free, both Centanni and
Wiig were forced at gunpoint to be video taped in Muslim robes and
converting to Islam.

My question to you today is if you were put in the same position Centanni
and Wiig were, told with a gun pointed to your head to convert to Islam or
be killed, what would you do?

For the record, I spoke with numerous people at Fox News trying to
find out what faith, if any, Centanni and Wiig claimed to have and nobody
could tell me. Their personal faith is not the issue, only the fact they
were forced under the threat of death to "convert" to Islam. In the one
brief comment about their "conversion" after being released, Centanni
states, ""We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint. Don't get me wrong
here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good
things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they hadthe guns, and
we didn't know what the hell was going on." So they both clearly felt they would be
killed if they did not do exactly what their captors demanded they do.

Let me say right up front, I know most who are reading this will answer that you
would gladly die for your faith in Jesus. The fact is, unless you are actually in a
situation where a gun is being pointed to your head with the threat of being killed,
you may know what you HOPE your answer is, bu treally don't know until that
moment if you would actually die for your faith. There are many good reasons
you can name to do whatever is necessary to stay alive. Your family needs you,
God will understand, all very valid. It still goes back to the question, if you were
forced to renounce Christ and embrace a false god to stay alive, would you?

I will never forget the very first death threat I received right after
Liveprayer started. It literally made me stop and think whether what I was
doing was worth dying for. I remember spending several days talking and
praying with my wife. She told me that she would stand by me whatever I
decided to do, but to please make sure my life insurance was current.
Seriously though, I had to make the conscious choice that I might actually
be killed for taking a stand for Christ. Dealing with Biblical Truth in the
straight forward manner I do while reaching a worldwide audience through the
Internet of over 2 million people daily and tens of thousands every night on
my TV program, I receive an average of 7-10 death threats every month.

There are many mentally unstable people in this world. Reaching out to the
unsaved masses as I do every day, I can only share with you that there is
incredible hostility by many to the Gospel and the Truth of God's Word.
People who have forwarded my Daily Devotional to a family member or friend
have emailed me in horror with the vicious responses they received back. If
you read my email each day you would see how truly sick and depraved many
people actually are. It only takes one delusional person to act on their
evil thoughts, so I have learned to live each day with the fact that because
of the bold and visible stand I have chosen to take for Christ, getting
killed for my faith is a very real possibility.

Here is what I want to challenge you with today and what gives me tremendous
peace. The fact is we are all going to die one day. That is not even
debatable. That also means we will have to die in some manner, whether it
is in a car wreck, a fire, an act of violence, some sort of accident, war
for those who serve our nation, or most likely from some health problem.
However we die, the reality is we will die one day. The wonderful thing
about our faith in Christ is that in addition to all the benefits of our
salvation during this life, we have the assurance of everlasting life in
Heaven when this brief journey here is completed. That is why death has no
hold on the Believer. That is why Paul was able to write to the church at
Corinth, "O death, where is they sting? O grave, where is they victory?"( 1 Corinthians 15:55 )

So knowing that through our faith in Christ we have already won the victory
over death, the child of God can confront those who may threaten us with
death with the confidence in knowing they have no power over us. All
killing us will do is end this brief journey and allow us to go on to our
heavenly home a bit sooner than we may have anticipated. The fact is, every
day all over this planet men and women are literally dying for their faith
in Jesus Christ. There are many places in the world today where being a
follower of Christ can literally cost you your life, and there are brothers
and sisters in the Lord who are paying the ultimate price for their faith.

Whenever this issue comes up, I am immediately reminded of the disciples of
Jesus. On the night He was betrayed, as the Roman soldiers came to take our
Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane, every single one of Christ's disciples
abandoned Him. They literally ran away in fear of being killed for being
with Jesus. Even the strong Peter denied knowing our Lord three times that
fateful night. The amazing this is, after the resurrection, after
Pentecost, these same men who ran in fear of their life, became incredibly
bold preachers of the faith who literally turned this world upside down.
Except for John, all died horrific deaths as martyrs for the faith.

So while we all know what we HOPE we would do if confronted with giving our
life for our faith, the fact is unless it actually happens to us, we really
don't know if we would die for Christ or in weakness, deny Him in order to
stay alive. I'm reminded of the words of Jesus found in Matthew 10:30 where
our Lord said, "He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his
life for my sake will find it."

I love you and care about you so much. As our nation becomes more anti-God,
as our world becomes even more evil in these last days, as radical false
religions like Islam whose stated goal is to kill all "infidels" or
non-Muslims, we can expect more and more followers of Christ to be martyred
for their faith in Jesus. While you may think this is only something that
happens in third world countries, I tell you today that there is coming a
day, sooner than anyone thinks, when followers of Christ right here in the
United States will be killed for their faith. It already happens today in
isolated cases, but I am talking about something that will become a common
occurrence. There is coming a great persecution of Christians in this nation. Gone will
be all the wonderful freedoms we enjoy today to proclaim the Gospel. Things
we take for granted like going to church, having Bible studies and home
fellowship groups will be outlawed. You will no longer be able to buy
Bibles and Christian resources on the open market as we do today. There
will be no more Christian websites, TV programs, radio programs, or music.
They will all be illegal. Are you sitting there and thinking that after
nearly 8 years I have finally lost it?

I tell you today that there is coming a great persecution of Christians in
this nation as God's wrath is poured out for our rebellion and rejection of
Him. The children of Israel enjoyed seasons of great freedoms to worship
and honor the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, yet many times God unleashed
His judgment on them because of their rebellion and allowed their enemies to
defeat them. One day soon, God will allow this nation to be taken over by
those who hate us and the first thing they will do is make Christianity
illegal. At that moment, there will be a great falling away from the faith
as people will have to decide, often with their very life, if they really
want to be a follower of Christ.

I will be praying for you today. Praying that you will become so emboldened
in your faith that you will not be afraid to die for Jesus if you are ever
faced with that option. There can be no greater way to die than to die for
the very One who willing gave His life so that you could have your sins
forgiven and receive the free gift of everlasting life. Death simply means
this journey is over and you are on to your heavenly rewards in Glory!

As I type theses words today, I can only pray that I will be found faithful
should I be looking down the barrel of a gun or the edge of a sword and told
to deny Jesus. If that happens, may my last words on this earth be doing my
best to tell those who kill me of the hope they can have in Jesus if they
will simply bow their knee and confess Him as their Savior. Without Jesus
this life has no meaning or purpose and is nothing. It is better to die for
Jesus than to live for nothing.

_________________
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk

Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:35 am 
God
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I'm hoping that G-d, Christ, or my ideals would see me as being more use to them alive than dead.

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"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:43 am 
God
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Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:16 pm
Posts: 1372
ozemc wrote:
I got this yesterday from Bill Keller. I know a lot of you disagree with what he says, and I do think he sometimes takes the Bible too literally, but this message made me think.

Just what is it we believe in and are we willing to take a stand if it would cost us our lives?

Excerpt from the e-mail is below:

Would you renounce Jesus to save your life? Last September the wonderful
news and answer to many prayers that Fox News reporter Steve Centanni and
his cameraman Olaf Wiig were released after being abducted at gunpoint two
weeks earlier while reporting from the Gaza Strip. One element of their release
that has not even been mentioned in all of their many post-release
interviews was the fact that just prior to being set free, both Centanni and
Wiig were forced at gunpoint to be video taped in Muslim robes and
converting to Islam.

My question to you today is if you were put in the same position Centanni
and Wiig were, told with a gun pointed to your head to convert to Islam or
be killed, what would you do?

For the record, I spoke with numerous people at Fox News trying to
find out what faith, if any, Centanni and Wiig claimed to have and nobody
could tell me. Their personal faith is not the issue, only the fact they
were forced under the threat of death to "convert" to Islam. In the one
brief comment about their "conversion" after being released, Centanni
states, ""We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint. Don't get me wrong
here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good
things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they hadthe guns, and
we didn't know what the hell was going on." So they both clearly felt they would be
killed if they did not do exactly what their captors demanded they do.

Let me say right up front, I know most who are reading this will answer that you
would gladly die for your faith in Jesus. The fact is, unless you are actually in a
situation where a gun is being pointed to your head with the threat of being killed,
you may know what you HOPE your answer is, bu treally don't know until that
moment if you would actually die for your faith. There are many good reasons
you can name to do whatever is necessary to stay alive. Your family needs you,
God will understand, all very valid. It still goes back to the question, if you were
forced to renounce Christ and embrace a false god to stay alive, would you?

I will never forget the very first death threat I received right after
Liveprayer started. It literally made me stop and think whether what I was
doing was worth dying for. I remember spending several days talking and
praying with my wife. She told me that she would stand by me whatever I
decided to do, but to please make sure my life insurance was current.
Seriously though, I had to make the conscious choice that I might actually
be killed for taking a stand for Christ. Dealing with Biblical Truth in the
straight forward manner I do while reaching a worldwide audience through the
Internet of over 2 million people daily and tens of thousands every night on
my TV program, I receive an average of 7-10 death threats every month.

There are many mentally unstable people in this world. Reaching out to the
unsaved masses as I do every day, I can only share with you that there is
incredible hostility by many to the Gospel and the Truth of God's Word.
People who have forwarded my Daily Devotional to a family member or friend
have emailed me in horror with the vicious responses they received back. If
you read my email each day you would see how truly sick and depraved many
people actually are. It only takes one delusional person to act on their
evil thoughts, so I have learned to live each day with the fact that because
of the bold and visible stand I have chosen to take for Christ, getting
killed for my faith is a very real possibility.

Here is what I want to challenge you with today and what gives me tremendous
peace. The fact is we are all going to die one day. That is not even
debatable. That also means we will have to die in some manner, whether it
is in a car wreck, a fire, an act of violence, some sort of accident, war
for those who serve our nation, or most likely from some health problem.
However we die, the reality is we will die one day. The wonderful thing
about our faith in Christ is that in addition to all the benefits of our
salvation during this life, we have the assurance of everlasting life in
Heaven when this brief journey here is completed. That is why death has no
hold on the Believer. That is why Paul was able to write to the church at
Corinth, "O death, where is they sting? O grave, where is they victory?"( 1 Corinthians 15:55 )

So knowing that through our faith in Christ we have already won the victory
over death, the child of God can confront those who may threaten us with
death with the confidence in knowing they have no power over us. All
killing us will do is end this brief journey and allow us to go on to our
heavenly home a bit sooner than we may have anticipated. The fact is, every
day all over this planet men and women are literally dying for their faith
in Jesus Christ. There are many places in the world today where being a
follower of Christ can literally cost you your life, and there are brothers
and sisters in the Lord who are paying the ultimate price for their faith.

Whenever this issue comes up, I am immediately reminded of the disciples of
Jesus. On the night He was betrayed, as the Roman soldiers came to take our
Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane, every single one of Christ's disciples
abandoned Him. They literally ran away in fear of being killed for being
with Jesus. Even the strong Peter denied knowing our Lord three times that
fateful night. The amazing this is, after the resurrection, after
Pentecost, these same men who ran in fear of their life, became incredibly
bold preachers of the faith who literally turned this world upside down.
Except for John, all died horrific deaths as martyrs for the faith.

So while we all know what we HOPE we would do if confronted with giving our
life for our faith, the fact is unless it actually happens to us, we really
don't know if we would die for Christ or in weakness, deny Him in order to
stay alive. I'm reminded of the words of Jesus found in Matthew 10:30 where
our Lord said, "He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his
life for my sake will find it."

I love you and care about you so much. As our nation becomes more anti-God,
as our world becomes even more evil in these last days, as radical false
religions like Islam whose stated goal is to kill all "infidels" or
non-Muslims, we can expect more and more followers of Christ to be martyred
for their faith in Jesus. While you may think this is only something that
happens in third world countries, I tell you today that there is coming a
day, sooner than anyone thinks, when followers of Christ right here in the
United States will be killed for their faith. It already happens today in
isolated cases, but I am talking about something that will become a common
occurrence. There is coming a great persecution of Christians in this nation. Gone will
be all the wonderful freedoms we enjoy today to proclaim the Gospel. Things
we take for granted like going to church, having Bible studies and home
fellowship groups will be outlawed. You will no longer be able to buy
Bibles and Christian resources on the open market as we do today. There
will be no more Christian websites, TV programs, radio programs, or music.
They will all be illegal. Are you sitting there and thinking that after
nearly 8 years I have finally lost it?

I tell you today that there is coming a great persecution of Christians in
this nation as God's wrath is poured out for our rebellion and rejection of
Him. The children of Israel enjoyed seasons of great freedoms to worship
and honor the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, yet many times God unleashed
His judgment on them because of their rebellion and allowed their enemies to
defeat them. One day soon, God will allow this nation to be taken over by
those who hate us and the first thing they will do is make Christianity
illegal. At that moment, there will be a great falling away from the faith
as people will have to decide, often with their very life, if they really
want to be a follower of Christ.

I will be praying for you today. Praying that you will become so emboldened
in your faith that you will not be afraid to die for Jesus if you are ever
faced with that option. There can be no greater way to die than to die for
the very One who willing gave His life so that you could have your sins
forgiven and receive the free gift of everlasting life. Death simply means
this journey is over and you are on to your heavenly rewards in Glory!

As I type theses words today, I can only pray that I will be found faithful
should I be looking down the barrel of a gun or the edge of a sword and told
to deny Jesus. If that happens, may my last words on this earth be doing my
best to tell those who kill me of the hope they can have in Jesus if they
will simply bow their knee and confess Him as their Savior. Without Jesus
this life has no meaning or purpose and is nothing. It is better to die for
Jesus than to live for nothing.


To my mind it's silly to die unecessarily. Deny Christ, go back to your family and loved ones, and then ask forgiveness, if you think you did wrong. Hell, even Peter denied Christ, and he turned out OK.

Or, if necessary, convert to the other religion, get released, go back home, and continue on. It's just some religious ritual that only has the meaning we give it. You can do more for your loved ones alive than dead.

Gordon B. Hinckley prevaricated when given the opportunity to affirm Mormon beliefs ("I don't know that we teach that"); if he can punt when under pressure (so much for "standing for something"--only one suspects he would have proudly stood up for being homophobic), why should the rank and file opt to make the final sacrifice.

Just say what they want you to say and get on with your life.

_________________
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:44 am 
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Location: Arizona
Several thoughts went through my mind this morning as I read this article.

I was reminded of the inspiring account of BF Johnson when he was alone and confronted by mobbers. They asked him if he was Mormon. He answered them boldly, ".. true blue, through and through". Astonished, they let him go. It wasn't until recently that I read where he became temporarilly dormant in his boldness as he began to take part in practicing plural marriage. I think this demonstrates the importance of being sure in our own heart and mind of the truth before we are willing to die for it.

So far as Centani and his cameraman go, I would have done the same thing. Being forced to join or even renounce a belief under duress makes one's new affiliation meaningless to those that are civilized. I don't slight them in the least. In fact, if we were buddies, we would have a good laugh over it. However, if I were placed under duress to renounce/affilliate myself and thereby cause the serious death or injury of another, I would prefer to lose my life.

I think in an attempt to help those under his leadership overcome their persecution complex, General Patton reminded his troops that it was not their duty to die for their country (or cause), it was their duty to make sure the other poor b****rds die for theirs.

I used to think a time would come when Christians would be murdered en mass even in the US. If this ever happens, I think it wouldn't be soon. True followers of Christ live a peaceable life. If they walk there talk, others in a free society pretty much leave them alone. I think I've gotten over the persecution complex.

To put things into perspective, in the early days of church, the Mormons were not just preaching of Jesus. Outsiders were intimidated by the Mormon presence for many reasons: Their voting block, rumors, bank failure, losing their family members to a cult when they already belonged to a Christian church, bagging on all other churches, closed society, arrogance of it's members etc.

I do believe that TV and Radio evangelists have a tendency to beg for money while preaching Jesus. I feel for the widow living on a meager fixed income in a trailer park that gives all to someone with a Rolex. Nut jobs sometimes get the good preachers mixed up with the bad ones when they discover their parents donated their entire inheritance to a clown with a bible. There is still no justification for a death threat in such circumstances but they do happen. I was physically threatened twice while serving a mission under this mistaken identity.

If I were the preacher that wrote this article, I would ask myself if Jesus is all I'm preaching. Either way, there is nothing stopping him from hiring a few bodyguards.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:24 am 
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In short, no.

KA

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:28 am 
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I thought he died for me?


I'm so freaking confused!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:28 am 
I would do what I had to do to stay alive for my family. God knows my heart. That's all that matters.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:29 pm 
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Many early martyrs died rather than renouncing their faith but I doubt that is what Jesus really wanted. I suspect he would have said, "Go with the flow till the situation changes". Look at what Peter's predicament would have been if he had not denied knowing Jeses three times.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:36 pm 
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As a kind of aside, this is one of the things that irked me about Les Miserables. Val Jean could easily have partaken in Cossette's and Marius' happiness and become a part of their lives, living happily ever after.

Yet out of some strange sense of moral duty (motivated is appears by his devout religiosity), he could not. He just HAD to play the role of martyr. It was totally unecessary and I can think of no reasonable moral code that demanded it; only his hyper-active sense of religious moral duty.

I realize this is fiction, but it has parallels in the totally unecessary martyrdom of so many religious adherents. Religious martyrdom can be, I suppose, enobling, but it can also be unecessary. Is God really that big of a monster that he could condemn someone for putting the welfare of his/her loved ones over his/her own rigid sense of regligious obligation?

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God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:41 pm 
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barrelomonkeys wrote:
I thought he died for me?


I'm so freaking confused!!!!


And therein lies the rub.

Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what this man says, but this article did make me think about the strength of my own beliefs and what I would do if forced to defend them.

Deep down, I don't think I could let someone take my life for them. I would much rather "live to fight another day."

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Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:31 pm 
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I don't know what I'd do. Go with the Spirit probably. I've been told that being Islam means submitting to God and a Muslim cleric said by that definition I am Islamic already and I have no problem with calling God Allah along with a host of other names I use. In fact I've used Allah in my prayers without having a gun in my face.

Still, if I needed to die and God thought it meant something I would die. If they insisted I deny Christ I would hope I had the courage to die. Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:53 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.


This statement troubles me.

I would have no trouble denying the existence of any god or converting to some man-made religion if my life was in danger. Life is precious above all.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:55 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.




That troubles me as well. Nehor, I've also seen you say that you look forward to death so you can have intercourse.

I hope you find a woman soon.

I'd wager the live ones are a bit more enjoyable to *know*. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:10 pm 
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I'm with Nehor on this one.

And I never thought I'd say this next bit, but Bill Keller was correct one at least one point (I won't touch the rest). That point would be that you can SAY you'll die for your faith and beliefs all the time, but it is a different situation when you are actually confronted with that decision.

Personally, I can say right now that I'd rather die than deny what I know to be true. :)

Besides, like Nehor said, I'm of the opinion that, if my life were cut short, I'd have a lot more work to do in the spirit world than I've ever done on earth as a mortal. Hey, there are some how many billions of people who ever heard the restored gospel of Jesus Christ? That's x billions of people who need to be taught it so they can receive the blessings of the everlasting restored gospel. ;)

"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those who transform into the Force, miss them do not, mourn them do not. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

Man, so many special little tidbits can be found in Star Wars quotes. :D


Ultimately, if faced with that situation, I would go by the Spirit's influence.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:21 pm 
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silentkid wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.


This statement troubles me.

I would have no trouble denying the existence of any god or converting to some man-made religion if my life was in danger. Life is precious above all.


Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it. I also still hold to what my father taught me about virtue. If you see a girl being raped you die if necessary in trying to stop it. Whether I'd have the courage to do what I claim I have no idea.

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Last edited by The Nehor on Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:25 pm 
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barrelomonkeys wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Of course I'm also of the belief that I can get it least as much (if not more) done dead than alive.




That troubles me as well. Nehor, I've also seen you say that you look forward to death so you can have intercourse.

I hope you find a woman soon.

I'd wager the live ones are a bit more enjoyable to *know*. :)


I admit part of me is eager to die. More for the experience and the sudden change of scenery. I'm not going to kill myself though and I also think I still have things to do.

I don't remember saying I want to die so I can have sex. I have my doubts Spirits even can. If I want sex it's wait for the ressurection or get it here. Since I can't affect timetable for Second Coming death would not hurry up sex coming. I do stand by that sex is better after the resurrection. When you know your partner's every want as they do it's bound to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:48 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it.


I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. It reminds me of this poster that used to hang on the wall in the BYU testing center. I think the quote was from Maeser. It said something to the effect that if he drew a circle around himself in chalk and gave his word never to step outside of it, he'd die before he went back on his word. I think that kind of absolutism is ridiculous (not to mention untestable). I think religion cheapens life by making one's unsubstantiated beliefs more important than one's life.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:06 pm 
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silentkid wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Right is more important than life. Way I was brought up and I still believe it.


I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. It reminds me of this poster that used to hang on the wall in the BYU testing center. I think the quote was from Maeser. It said something to the effect that if he drew a circle around himself in chalk and gave his word never to step outside of it, he'd die before he went back on his word. I think that kind of absolutism is ridiculous (not to mention untestable). I think religion cheapens life by making one's unsubstantiated beliefs more important than one's life.


I don't think my beliefs are unsubstantiated. The kind of thinking I'm talking about is untestable (or at least the test is dangerous and the results permanent). Again I disagree that religion cheapens life. In my experience it enriches. I think that a life lived with nothing in it worth dying for is not a real life. Most people would die for their children and that doesn't cheapen their life it makes it more vibrant. Should my God be less?

I have seen that poster as well. I disliked it. What most people call honor is pride.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:42 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
I think that a life lived with nothing in it worth dying for is not a real life. Most people would die for their children and that doesn't cheapen their life it makes it more vibrant.


I agree with this. I just don't feel that religion fills the "nothing" you refer to above. I've actually found more meaning in life without the constraints of religion. I'd like to think that I'd sacrifice my life for my wife (if I had one) or children (if I had any) or country, if need be. To me, that's different than being willing to sacrifice oneself for a god-belief.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:38 pm 
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guy sajer wrote:
As a kind of aside, this is one of the things that irked me about Les Miserables. Val Jean could easily have partaken in Cossette's and Marius' happiness and become a part of their lives, living happily ever after.

Yet out of some strange sense of moral duty (motivated is appears by his devout religiosity), he could not. He just HAD to play the role of martyr. It was totally unecessary and I can think of no reasonable moral code that demanded it; only his hyper-active sense of religious moral duty.

I realize this is fiction, but it has parallels in the totally unecessary martyrdom of so many religious adherents. Religious martyrdom can be, I suppose, enobling, but it can also be unecessary. Is God really that big of a monster that he could condemn someone for putting the welfare of his/her loved ones over his/her own rigid sense of regligious obligation?


I am not sure why you may suppose that martyrdom, or willingness to die for one's faith, is about condemnation avoidance. It certainly doesn't factor into my religious consideration. Rather, I would be motivated morally by love and my devotion to such vital, religious principles as freedom, liberty, honor, valor, duty, etc.--the importance of which may, at times, exceed that of human life.

I view somewhat less simplistically the situation described in the opening post. To me, the circumstance was about more than just converting to Islam or be shot. I believe it was also about loss of agency as well as what messages may be communicated to the world. I would decline conversion to Islam under those conditions, not just because it would contraven my religious beliefs and commitments, but also because I would not wish to communicate to the terrorist or the world that it was okay for Muslim extremist to violate civil liberties and religious freedoms in that way (how Guy Sajer missed these moral imparatives is beyond me). I would not wish to be a party to their propaganda efforts. In fact, I would hope that my subsequent death would outrage moral people throughout the world, and mobilize them against such immoral acts. in hopes that family members and loved ones and fellow countrymen would not have to be subjected to the same. I would do it, not just because I love my faith and my God, but also because I love freadom and liberty and safety for all. I believe my life would be worth that.

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:49 pm 
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silentkid wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
I think that a life lived with nothing in it worth dying for is not a real life. Most people would die for their children and that doesn't cheapen their life it makes it more vibrant.


I agree with this. I just don't feel that religion fills the "nothing" you refer to above. I've actually found more meaning in life without the constraints of religion. I'd like to think that I'd sacrifice my life for my wife (if I had one) or children (if I had any) or country, if need be. To me, that's different than being willing to sacrifice oneself for a god-belief.


Why is it different? Remember to me God is not a belief. He is a person and so much more.

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