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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:27 am 
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Pretty funny article.

My answer is this. Most born again Christians who would have any admiration at all for the author of this article would reject Jesus. My reasoning is that the majority of these Christians are very weak people, and possibly prone to the mild hypnosis that goes on at those big Christian stadium bashes. If a guy can go into a stadium filled with totally gay music and people closing their eyes and reaching their hands in the air, or worse, speaking in toungues, and honestly come out of the situation beliving in Jesus, then he would stand little chance under the pressure of bondage, the threat of torture and death, sleep deprival or nutritional deprevation, and all kinds of other manipulations. I know that, even as an athiest, q few situations, lets say no more than two, i've got myself into eroded my ability to to think clearly or really, even know who I am. Looking back, it's like recalling another person's experiences. I don't think I'm exceptionally strong when it comes to life pressures, but I know and work with many people much weaker than I am. And I know what I'm capable of, unfortunately, under the wrong set of pressures, and to deny Jesus and even semi-seriously convert to Islam for a believer who got saved on a whim is extremely easy for me to see.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:42 am 
Gadianton wrote:
Pretty funny article.

Looking back, it's like recalling another person's experiences.


Scratch, I think you need to take up the subject of schizophrenia here.


Gadianton wrote:
I don't think I'm exceptionally strong when it comes to life pressures, but I know and work with many people much weaker than I am.


Poor, pathetic human beings. Just as well you stand out in the species. No hope otherwise.


Gadianton wrote:
And I know what I'm capable of, unfortunately, under the wrong set of pressures, and to deny Jesus and even semi-seriously convert to Islam for a believer who got saved on a whim is extremely easy for me to see.


Just like "death is the end". We all know that!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:21 am 
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hmm, Ray, not thinking you understood what I said. I said I don't think I'm exceptionally strong. That would mean, even given my further qualification, that I don't stand out in the species at all. I'd say I'm about average in that way or slightly above. Anyone who works a career as a doctor or lawyer or who can raise 5 kids - and remain high functioning without meds is clearly stronger than I am.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:39 am 
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wenglund wrote:
guy sajer wrote:
As a kind of aside, this is one of the things that irked me about Les Miserables. Val Jean could easily have partaken in Cossette's and Marius' happiness and become a part of their lives, living happily ever after.

Yet out of some strange sense of moral duty (motivated is appears by his devout religiosity), he could not. He just HAD to play the role of martyr. It was totally unecessary and I can think of no reasonable moral code that demanded it; only his hyper-active sense of religious moral duty.

I realize this is fiction, but it has parallels in the totally unecessary martyrdom of so many religious adherents. Religious martyrdom can be, I suppose, enobling, but it can also be unecessary. Is God really that big of a monster that he could condemn someone for putting the welfare of his/her loved ones over his/her own rigid sense of regligious obligation?


I am not sure why you may suppose that martyrdom, or willingness to die for one's faith, is about condemnation avoidance. It certainly doesn't factor into my religious consideration. Rather, I would be motivated morally by love and my devotion to such vital, religious principles as freedom, liberty, honor, valor, duty, etc.--the importance of which may, at times, exceed that of human life.

I view somewhat less simplistically the situation described in the OP. To me, the circumstance was about more than just converting to Islam or be shot. I believe it was also about loss of agency as well as what messages may be communicated to the world. I would decline conversion to Islam under those conditions, not just because it would contraven my religious beliefs and commitments, but also because I would not wish to communicate to the terrorist or the world that it was okay for Muslim extremist to violate civil liberties and religious freedoms in that way (how Guy Sajer missed these moral imparatives is beyond me). I would not wish to be a party to their propaganda efforts. In fact, I would hope that my subsequent death would outrage moral people throughout the world, and mobilize them against such immoral acts. in hopes that family members and loved ones and fellow countrymen would not have to be subjected to the same. I would do it, not just because I love my faith and my God, but also because I love freadom and liberty and safety for all. I believe my life would be worth that.

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


True, Val Jean perhaps (to the extent we can speculate given it's fiction) was not motivated by fear of condemnation, but his self-sacrifice was still unecessary and done so at the expense of the happiness of his beloved child.

If it's so critical for you to tell Islamacists that they cannot violate our civil liberties this way, I assume then that you stood up and protested the whole Danish Cartoon thing? If you want to make a statement, there are often other ways to do so than to die for it; particulalry when the point you make will soon be forgotten and will have no impact on anything. As for the moral imperative, I don't see one demanding that one give one's life to make a statement about freedom of religiou to Islamacists. You may internalize it that way, that that's your choice. I prefer a more pracmatic approach in this case. Not every decision need be driven by overriding moral imperatives. One can legimitately opt for a utilitarian solution at times too.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:02 am 
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guy sajer wrote:
True, Val Jean perhaps (to the extent we can speculate given it's fiction) was not motivated by fear of condemnation, but his self-sacrifice was still unecessary and done so at the expense of the happiness of his beloved child.

If it's so critical for you to tell Islamacists that they cannot violate our civil liberties this way, I assume then that you stood up and protested the whole Danish Cartoon thing? If you want to make a statement, there are often other ways to do so than to die for it; particulalry when the point you make will soon be forgotten and will have no impact on anything. As for the moral imperative, I don't see one demanding that one give one's life to make a statement about freedom of religiou to Islamacists. You may internalize it that way, that that's your choice. I prefer a more pracmatic approach in this case. Not every decision need be driven by overriding moral imperatives. One can legimitately opt for a utilitarian solution at times too.


Of course there will be times and occasions where death may not be the preferred option, and perhaps even where it may be morally imparative not to sacrifice one's life. However, were I faced with the same circumstances as mentioned in the OP, I would view it as not only morally imparative (as previously described) to take the death option, but also preferred for utilitarian reasons as well.

And, sure, I could have walked down State Street, Salt Lake City, during lunch hour carrying a sign protesting the Danish cartoon thing. But, I am not sure how many Muslim extremist I would be reach, nor do I believe it would have but a microscopic fraction of the impact that broadcasting, via Al Jazeer and the internet, the mortal violation of my civil rights by terrorists. Do you?

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:08 am 
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The Nehor wrote:
Remember to me God is not a belief. He is a person and so much more.


I can't dispute that using your definitions of evidence. Now that we've established that you're willing to die for your god, would you be willing to kill for him, like Nephi? Sorry if that is slightly off-topic.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:49 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
And, sure, I could have walked down State Street, Salt Lake City, during lunch hour carrying a sign protesting the Danish cartoon thing. But, I am not sure how many Muslim extremist I would be reach, nor do I believe it would have but a microscopic fraction of the impact that broadcasting, via Al Jazeer and the internet, the mortal violation of my civil rights by terrorists. Do you?


Depends; if there's thousands of protestors like yourself, then it could have a tremendous impact.

A microscopic fraction of a microscopic fraction vs. a microscopic faction; it's a microscopic fraction in either case.

You may choose to die to make a point that few people will get (probably as many people would think you foolish as think you heroic), but I see virtue in living to fight another day without making hollow and rather ineffective grand gestures.

But, as you say, to each their own.

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God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:40 pm 
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silentkid wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Remember to me God is not a belief. He is a person and so much more.


I can't dispute that using your definitions of evidence. Now that we've established that you're willing to die for your god, would you be willing to kill for him, like Nephi? Sorry if that is slightly off-topic.


I don't know. Situation has never come up and I've never thought about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:01 am 
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guy sajer wrote:
wenglund wrote:
And, sure, I could have walked down State Street, Salt Lake City, during lunch hour carrying a sign protesting the Danish cartoon thing. But, I am not sure how many Muslim extremist I would be reach, nor do I believe it would have but a microscopic fraction of the impact that broadcasting, via Al Jazeer and the internet, the mortal violation of my civil rights by terrorists. Do you?


Depends; if there's thousands of protestors like yourself, then it could have a tremendous impact.

A microscopic fraction of a microscopic fraction vs. a microscopic faction; it's a microscopic fraction in either case.

You may choose to die to make a point that few people will get (probably as many people would think you foolish as think you heroic), but I see virtue in living to fight another day without making hollow and rather ineffective grand gestures.

But, as you say, to each their own.


I suppose if I were to wildly over estimate the coverage and impact I may have as a single protestor (even among imagined thousands here in Salt Lake City) of a relatively meaningless cartoon in a foriegn newspaper that I heard about months after publication, and wildly under estimate the coverage and impact that my horrific death may have when likely broadcast on TV and cable networks and the internet world wide, then there is a chance I might see things your way. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:17 am 
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wenglund wrote:
guy sajer wrote:
wenglund wrote:
And, sure, I could have walked down State Street, Salt Lake City, during lunch hour carrying a sign protesting the Danish cartoon thing. But, I am not sure how many Muslim extremist I would be reach, nor do I believe it would have but a microscopic fraction of the impact that broadcasting, via Al Jazeer and the internet, the mortal violation of my civil rights by terrorists. Do you?


Depends; if there's thousands of protestors like yourself, then it could have a tremendous impact.

A microscopic fraction of a microscopic fraction vs. a microscopic faction; it's a microscopic fraction in either case.

You may choose to die to make a point that few people will get (probably as many people would think you foolish as think you heroic), but I see virtue in living to fight another day without making hollow and rather ineffective grand gestures.

But, as you say, to each their own.


I suppose if I were to wildly over estimate the coverage and impact I may have as a single protestor (even among imagined thousands here in Salt Lake City) of a relatively meaningless cartoon in a foriegn newspaper that I heard about months after publication, and wildly under estimate the coverage and impact that my horrific death may have when likely broadcast on TV and cable networks and the internet world wide, then there is a chance I might see things your way. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Wade, are you naturally this obtuse, or do you practice?

Please point out to me where I wildly overestimate the impact of a single protestor, such as yourself? Did I not explicitly state that it would depend on whether there were "thousands" of others like yourself?

Please also point out to me how the horrorific deaths that have already occured at the hands of Islamacists have produced the kind of widespread, popular revolt you seem to imagine your tragic, yet heroric death would cause?

You'd be talked about in the press for a while, become a fok hero to Mormons (I doubt the Fundies would adopt you as their own given that you belong to an apostate sect), and then quietly fade from public consciousness.

Tell me, do you remember the name of any of the persons (aside from Daniel Pearl--and I excempt him, because there was recently a movie about him) who have died over the past 2 years at the hands of Islamic extremists? No fair to google.

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God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:23 pm 
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guy sajer wrote:
wenglund wrote:
guy sajer wrote:
wenglund wrote:
And, sure, I could have walked down State Street, Salt Lake City, during lunch hour carrying a sign protesting the Danish cartoon thing. But, I am not sure how many Muslim extremist I would be reach, nor do I believe it would have but a microscopic fraction of the impact that broadcasting, via Al Jazeer and the internet, the mortal violation of my civil rights by terrorists. Do you?


Depends; if there's thousands of protestors like yourself, then it could have a tremendous impact.

A microscopic fraction of a microscopic fraction vs. a microscopic faction; it's a microscopic fraction in either case.

You may choose to die to make a point that few people will get (probably as many people would think you foolish as think you heroic), but I see virtue in living to fight another day without making hollow and rather ineffective grand gestures.

But, as you say, to each their own.


I suppose if I were to wildly over estimate the coverage and impact I may have as a single protestor (even among imagined thousands here in Salt Lake City) of a relatively meaningless cartoon in a foriegn newspaper that I heard about months after publication, and wildly under estimate the coverage and impact that my horrific death may have when likely broadcast on TV and cable networks and the internet world wide, then there is a chance I might see things your way. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Wade, are you naturally this obtuse, or do you practice?


I suppose that to the narrow and closed minded, what I said may come across as "obtuse".

Quote:
Please point out to me where I wildly overestimate the impact of a single protestor, such as yourself? Did I not explicitly state that it would depend on whether there were "thousands" of others like yourself?


The dispute, as I understood it, was about the possible coverage and impact that I personally may generate either through me protesting a Danish cartoon or choosing to be killed rather than converting to Islam. You initially equated the impact of the two, and when you realized how asinine that comparison was, you later tossed in some imagined thousands of other protestors (as if those other protestors had anything to do with my personal impact--they don't).

Quote:
Please also point out to me how the horrorific deaths that have already occured at the hands of Islamacists have produced the kind of widespread, popular revolt you seem to imagine your tragic, yet heroric death would cause?


I have no idea how wide-spread or how popular the revolt, if any, there would be were I to have made the choice as previously stated. I just reasonably figure that it would get considerably more coverage, and have a considerably greater impact, then were I to wave a sign in protest over a Danish cartoon.

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You'd be talked about in the press for a while, become a folk hero to Mormons (I doubt the Fundies would adopt you as their own given that you belong to an apostate sect), and then quietly fade from public consciousness.


That is certainly possible. I would suspect, though, that such an extreme act would add clarity and impetus to the war on terror. Hypothetically, as a reporter, I would supposed that my death would have greater meaning to the media complex than perhaps the death of a soldier or civilian. I would be one of the media's own, and that, I would think, would curry more media attention and sympathy.

Also, I believe the circumstances would make more obvious what the terrorist action are ultimately about. My death wouldn't be because of some supposed justified hatred by Muslims towards the US. It wouldn't be about the infidel's occupying sacred Islamic ground. It wouldn't be because of the Arab/Isreali conflict. It wouldn't be because of oil. Rather, it would be about radical Muslims wishing to convert people to Islam at the threat of death. Many of us already understand that this is ultimately what is driving the terrorist efforts, but many throughout the world haven't a clue (due in part, I believe, to the effective propaganda efforts of the terrorist and their sympathizer in the media and governments and organizations throughout the world). I would think my death, under the specified conditions, would put a very fine point on the matter--more so than were I to capitulate and convert to Islam, as evidence by how little this point is being talked about in relation to the real-life experiences of the reporters.

Quote:
Tell me, do you remember the name of any of the persons (aside from Daniel Pearl--and I excempt him, because there was recently a movie about him) who have died over the past 2 years at the hands of Islamic extremists? No fair to google.


I don't know their names, nor could I tell you the names of anyone who died in the twin towers or at the Pentagon or on flight 93. But, I do remember the various beheadings and what happened on 9/11, and I was significantly impacted be them all--as were numerous other people who may not be able to remember specific names either. In contrast, not only could I not give you a name of someone who supposedly protested the Danish cartoon, but I don't even know if any protests took place, and even if they did, I wouldn't have had much of an impact on me at all, and certainly no where close to the impact of the beheadings I am aware of. And, from what I observed from reading the blogousphere and listening to talk radio and watching the news, I am not alone in how I was comparatively impacted by these contrasting events. Perhaps it was different for you. Perhaps for you the impact of the alleged cartoon protestors was equal to the beheadings of US citizens at the hands of terrorists. If so, I would suggest your sense of proportion and perspective is considerably out of whack.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:20 am 
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I've seen TBMs on these boards defend Joseph Smith' lies about polygamy, Abraham's lies about Sarah being his sister, etc. I've seen TBMs say they would lie in any number of ways to save their lives.

Why all the high and mighty idealistic bullroar now?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:22 am 
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Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
I've seen TBMs on these boards defend Joseph Smith' lies about polygamy, Abraham's lies about Sarah being his sister, etc. I've seen TBMs say they would lie in any number of ways to save their lives.

Why all the high and mighty idealistic bullroar now?


..or even de-doctrinizing previous doctrine such as poligamy, breaking covenants punishable by taking one's life (in the pre-1990 temple endowment), the preference to see ones child come home in a box than for them to lose their virtue, re-enstatement of John D. Lee's membership and temple endowments...

Perhaps what we are really suggesting is that there is this phenomenon we might coin as Mormon situational ethics?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:41 am 
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Inconceivable wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
I've seen TBMs on these boards defend Joseph Smith' lies about polygamy, Abraham's lies about Sarah being his sister, etc. I've seen TBMs say they would lie in any number of ways to save their lives.

Why all the high and mighty idealistic bullroar now?


..or even de-doctrinizing previous doctrine such as poligamy, breaking covenants punishable by taking one's life (in the pre-1990 temple endowment), the preference to see ones child come home in a box than for them to lose their virtue, re-enstatement of John D. Lee's membership and temple endowments...

Perhaps what we are really suggesting is that there is this phenomenon we might coin as Mormon situational ethics?


Smugness alert! ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


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