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 Post subject: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:43 am 
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This is a quote from Dieter's biography on lds.org:

Quote:
On December 17, 1973, the president of Lufthansa German Airlines received alarming news. Five terrorists had hijacked a Lufthansa 737 jet in Rome, Italy, and were making their way to Athens, Greece, with hostages on board. In an instant, Lufthansa’s president ordered into the air his chief pilot for the 737 fleet. Thirty-three-year-old Dieter F. Uchtdorf was to take a small group of emergency personnel and follow the hijacked plane wherever the guerrillas took it. In every setting possible he was to negotiate for the release of the plane, the pilots, and the hostages. Then, when all of this had been accomplished, he was to fly the hijacked 737 back to headquarters in Frankfurt.
With fortunately no more bloodshed, this mission, like so many others he had been on personally and professionally, was successfully accomplished.

http://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostle ... f?lang=eng

Now this may or may not be accurate, but let's assume for a moment that it is.
Why has the Church, with Dieter's permission, seen fit to make this paragraph the first part of Dieter's 'biography' on lds.org?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



As for it's accuracy:

Lufthansa hijacking

Quote:
Other gunmen took several Italian hostages and Lufthansa ground crewmembers into a Lufthansa Boeing 737 waiting to depart for Munich. An Italian customs officer was shot dead on the ground after resisting. The plane, containing Captain Joe Kroese, the first officer, two flight attendants, two ground crew, and eight Italian hostages, took off for Athens, Greece on the orders of the five terrorists also on board. After landing in Athens, the terrorists demanded by radio the release of two Palestinian gunmen responsible for a previous attack on an Athens airport terminal lounge. They claimed to have killed five hostages, including the plane's first officer. The terrorists also threatened to crash the jet in the middle of Athens if their demands were not met. In reality, only one Italian hostage had been killed and one wounded. The plane took off again from Athens after sixteen hours on the ground and after the gunmen had released the wounded hostage and dumped the body of the dead hostage onto the tarmac.
The plane next headed for Beirut, where Lebanese authorities refused to allow landing, and blocked the runway with vehicles. Cyprus also refused to allow landing. The guerrillas on board finally ordered the plane to be landed in Damascus, Syria, allegedly because the plane was running low on fuel. In Syria, Air Force Commander Major General Naji Jamil attempted to persuade the Palestinians to release the hostages, but they refused. The Syrians provided food and refueled the plane. They also treated a head injury suffered by one of the hijackers. The plane took off again after about two to three hours.
The commandeered jet next headed for Kuwait, where Kuwaiti authorities refused to allow it to land. Captain Kroese was ordered by the terrorists to land anyway on a secondary runway. An hour of negotiations between the Palestinian gunmen and the Kuwaiti authorities ended with the release of all twelve remaining hostages in exchange for "free passage" to an unknown destination for the hijackers. The terrorists were permitted to retain their weapons and made a V-for-victory sign with their hands upon leaving the plane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Fli ... _hijacking

I think the Church tries to make it sound as though DFU was in harms way and instrumental in the hostage release, whereas the reality seems to be that he flew a few people around for an hour or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:33 am 
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Sounds as if the same claims of professionalism involved in the saving of lives could have been made for the hundreds of other individuals in several countries who were involved in the successful resolution of the hijacking incident.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Was Paul Dunn here helping him?

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Just because a Wiki article does not mention a designated Lufthansa representative as being involved in any negotiating process, does not mean any negotiating did not happen. This is like trying to build an argument on lack of data. Many parties that were not named, but who obviously had a part in this story, are absent from this very brief accounting.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:04 am 
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moksha wrote:
Just because a Wiki article does not mention a designated Lufthansa representative as being involved in any negotiating process, does not mean any negotiating did not happen. This is like trying to build an argument on lack of data. Many parties that were not named, but who obviously had a part in this story, are absent from this very brief accounting.


I accept that Moksha.
However the question remains as to why, having kept his involvement in it quiet for so long, Dieter now chooses to publish (the Church didn't do this against his wishes) his self aggrandising account of it as his First Presidency biography...

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:19 am 
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moksha wrote:
Just because a Wiki article does not mention a designated Lufthansa representative as being involved in any negotiating process, does not mean any negotiating did not happen. This is like trying to build an argument on lack of data. Many parties that were not named, but who obviously had a part in this story, are absent from this very brief accounting.

No, this is not the equivalent of building an argument from a lack of data.

The wiki article says:
"An hour of negotiations between the Palestinian gunmen and the Kuwaiti authorities ended with the release of all twelve remaining hostages in exchange for "free passage" to an unknown destination for the hijackers.

One can reasonably infer from this sentence that whoever wrote the article did not consider that a representative from Lufthansa played a material role in the negotiations.


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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:17 pm 
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In an odd way, the story the LDS church published here about Uchtdorf lends credence to the church's claim to be the one true restored church of Jesus Christ on earth. The modern LDS church is constitutionally incapable of relating even the most ordinary historical event involving one of its leaders without fabricating, embellishing, exaggerating, and hagiographying. It's one of the 18 signs of the one true church.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:40 pm 
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You guys are fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Couldn't help myself. My first meme ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:43 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Just because a Wiki article does not mention a designated Lufthansa representative as being involved in any negotiating process, does not mean any negotiating did not happen. This is like trying to build an argument on lack of data. Many parties that were not named, but who obviously had a part in this story, are absent from this very brief accounting.


when you're dealing with an implausible claim (like an commercial airline pilot being asked to lead a hostage negotiation and recovery effort), it's appropriate to dismiss it based on less evidence than you would want before dismissing a more plausible claim.


Last edited by palerobber on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:27 pm 
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New Strait Times, 12/19/1973:
Quote:
[...] The Boeing-737 jet landed in the desert near Kuwait airport, apparently after it was denied permission to touch down on the airport runway. An airport official said: "We don't know how deep the wheels are buried in the sand." Kuwaiti Defence Minister Sheik Saad al Abdullah was reported to be at the airport control tower negotiating with the hijackers by radio. [...]


this is just one news report, but since what they're reporting is plausible to begin with (Abdullah, unlike Uchtdorf, spoke the same language as the hijackers and was a high ranking government official) i'm inclined to assume it's accurate until i see substantial evidence to the contrary.


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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:51 am 
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Quote:
Kuwaiti Defence Minister Sheik Saad al Abdullah was reported to be at the airport control tower negotiating with the hijackers by radio. [...]


Are we to assume the Sheik acted alone or could he have received substantive input from the chief of the Lufthansa 737 fleet? A few paragraphs in the Wikipedia probably leaves out the breadth of the back story that inevitably accompanies such a hijacking, unless of course the Sheik was played by Bruce Willis. Bruce single handedly took care of a hijacking, not once but in several sequels.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:12 am 
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Last edited by Hasa Diga Eebowai on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:06 am 
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moksha wrote:
Quote:
Kuwaiti Defence Minister Sheik Saad al Abdullah was reported to be at the airport control tower negotiating with the hijackers by radio. [...]


Are we to assume the Sheik acted alone or could he have received substantive input from the chief of the Lufthansa 737 fleet? A few paragraphs in the Wikipedia probably leaves out the breadth of the back story that inevitably accompanies such a hijacking, unless of course the Sheik was played by Bruce Willis. Bruce single handedly took care of a hijacking, not once but in several sequels.


you seem to be turning this on its head. no one claimed Abdullah was Bruce Willis. if anything it's Uchtdorf's bio that paints him as Bruce Willis. what this news report and the wikipedia article both confirm is that Uchtdorf could not have played the principle role his bio gives the impression of because the principle actors were the Kuwaitis. it's not at all implausible that Uchtdorf played a minor role (though i haven't been able to find any contemporary news account that mentions him by name or position) so i would be inclined to just take his word for it, but then he undercuts his own credibility by overstating his role in the bio.


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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:06 am 
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palerobber wrote:
you seem to be turning this on its head. no one claimed Abdullah was Bruce Willis. if anything it's Uchtdorf's bio that paints him as Bruce Willis. what this news report and the wikipedia article both confirm is that Uchtdorf could not have played the principle role his bio gives the impression of because the principle actors were the Kuwaitis. it's not at all implausible that Uchtdorf played a minor role (though i haven't been able to find any contemporary news account that mentions him by name or position) so i would be inclined to just take his word for it, but then he undercuts his own credibility by overstating his role in the bio.


Your analysis is spot on.

The problem is that bio says his mission was to "negotiate", not facilitate, assist or aid in the negotiations. The bio later says, without any clarification that his mission "was successfully accomplished," leading the uninformed and gullible reader to believe that he had successfully negotiated the release of the hostages.

To be fair, however, the bio said he was to negotiate "in every setting possible." Since there was probably no setting in which he had the opportunity to negotiate with the terrorist, his mission can accurately been labeled a success even if someone else had negotiated their release, and he played no role.

So the bio, from a PR standpoint was extremely well written, in that it was both completely accurate and totally misleading.


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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Jaybear wrote:

So the bio, from a PR standpoint was extremely well written, in that it was both completely accurate and totally misleading.


I suspect this bio statement was more the result of the embellishment squad than the intent of President Uchtdorf to deceive us. He probably mentioned his role in the resolution of this hijacking and the squad immediately deployed hot air generators, sugar coating sprayers and the cast of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:12 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Jaybear wrote:

So the bio, from a PR standpoint was extremely well written, in that it was both completely accurate and totally misleading.


I suspect this bio statement was more the result of the embellishment squad than the intent of President Uchtdorf to deceive us. He probably mentioned his role in the resolution of this hijacking and the squad immediately deployed hot air generators, sugar coating sprayers and the cast of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.


But Uchtdorf has done nothing to correct the misimpressions, which makes him complicit in them. Maybe if Mormon church leaders did more to correct things like this, members like Manti Te'o wouldn't think that allowing deceptions to stand is ethical behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:41 pm 
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moksha wrote:
I suspect this bio statement was more the result of the embellishment squad than the intent of President Uchtdorf to deceive us. He probably mentioned his role in the resolution of this hijacking and the squad immediately deployed hot air generators, sugar coating sprayers and the cast of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.


i don't disagree with you here.


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 Post subject: Re: Dieter F. Uchtdorf - hostage negotiator...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:41 pm 
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man this paul dunn rising!


dieter was a 33 y/o pilot and probably spoke english and german. he flew a plane somewhere around the operational area of the hostage situation and flew home.

the book needs a quote from the lufthansa bossman on what he told dieter to do , not do. the guy is probably dead, so the lds can embellish the account to make it look like dieter was some sort of hero.

On the other hand how about dieter meeting up for drink at the closest watering hole to the COB and telling us how hot the lufthansa stewardess(i know flght attendant) was as he flew that 737 at mach 1.2 with her on his lap whispering orders from frankfurt " dieter go links, nein go richt- u are so bravvvvve"

just sayin'
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