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 Post subject: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:15 am 
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Can someone confirm or correct my understanding?

The Bible addresses a mark on Cain. But it NEVER suggests this was a change of skin color or that the mark was passed on to Cain's descendants. Correct?

Prior to the prodution of the Book of Mormon and at the time of the Book of Mormon, likely because of racism long passed down, many believed the "mark" of Cain as referenced in the Bible was a skin color and used it as a basis to mistreat dark-skinned people. Correct?

The Book of Mormon contains a curse from God on the Lamanites that is a skin of blackness that was passed on to descendants (and at one point, the Church believed Native Americans were the descendants because, among other things, they had the curse of dark skin). Correct?

So, in the end, the Book of Mormon writers simply adopted a racist view of the time and put it in the Book of Mormon as scripture and now the Church is stuck with what was obviously a mistaken view of some racists regarding the Bible when the Bible said no such thing. Correct?

Wow. It seems like such a simple way to discard the Book of Mormon as mere writings of men of a certain time. How is the Church going to get out of this one down the road? It seems every Mormon who believes in the Book of Mormon has to believe God, at least in one instance in the Americas, used the darkening of one's skin as a "curse." Is this a ticking time bomb.

Please correct or add to my understanding on these points.


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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:32 am 
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I feel that your understanding of the situation is correct.

It appears that the church plans to handle it by de-emphasizing it. They have made some slight changes to some of the chapter headings about the skin curse in the Book of Mormon. Of course, the actual text and teachings remain the same, so far.

It's hideous. We'll see how long it takes for it to die.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:17 pm 
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mms wrote:
Can someone confirm or correct my understanding?

The Bible addresses a mark on Cain. But it NEVER suggests this was a change of skin color or that the mark was passed on to Cain's descendants. Correct?

IIRC, it was a mark on Cain per se, no mention that it was to extend also to his descendants.
Genesis 4 wrote:

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


See also Book of Moses 5:40; cf. Book of Moses 7:22.

mms wrote:
Prior to the produ[c]tion of the Book of Mormon and at the time of the Book of Mormon, likely because of racism long passed down, many believed the "mark" of Cain as referenced in the Bible was a skin color and used it as a basis to mistreat dark-skinned people. Correct?

Funny that line of thought. The mark on Cain was so that he could be easily identified and no one else would kill Cain, lest they be punished by god 7 fold. That marking, then, was so that others would not run afoul of this protection of Cain, and receive 7 fold punishment if they killed him. Those that might have believed the mark, and curse, passed on to Cain's descendants and have perhaps mistreated black persons (particularly killed them) would by their own belief be subjecting themselves to a penalty 7 fold from god.
mms wrote:
The Book of Mormon contains a curse from God on the Lamanites that is a skin of blackness that was passed on to descendants (and at one point, the Church believed Native Americans were the descendants because, among other things, they had the curse of dark skin). Correct?

It does, well, it did. This has been softened. But for decades, this is exactly how the Book of Mormon read.
mms wrote:
So, in the end, the Book of Mormon writers simply adopted a racist view of the time and put it in the Book of Mormon as scripture and now the Church is stuck with what was obviously a mistaken view of some racists regarding the Bible when the Bible said no such thing. Correct?

Mormons can be grateful for a forgiving membership that has let the Church use 'white-out' (pun intended) to soften the racism in the Book of Mormon.
mms wrote:
Wow. It seems like such a simple way to discard the Book of Mormon as mere writings of men of a certain time. How is the Church going to get out of this one down the road?

Multiple simple ways.
mms wrote:
It seems every Mormon who believes in the Book of Mormon has to believe God, at least in one instance in the Americas, used the darkening of one's skin as a "curse." Is this a ticking time bomb.

Please correct or add to my understanding on these points.

It could be very explosive in the next 75 days particularly.

Don't forget those racist gem of Mormon scripture:

Book of Moses 7:22
Quote:
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.


The seed of Cain were black, and segregated from the rest of Adam's descendants.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:26 pm 
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They need to make an addendum to the 2nd Articl of Faith. Right now it is an inaccurate portrayal of the last 150 years of Mormon Doctrine.

Article 2: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Should be changed to:

Article 2: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression unless you are a descendant of Laman and Lemuel, then you and your progeny will be punished for their transgtressions with a dark skin curse for centuries that will make you dull to the spirit and a lazy, idle, and loathsome people. If you belong to the seed of Cain, you will also be punished for his transgressions and have a black skin curse and will not be able to hold the Priesthood for centuries until the Lord randomly deems the priesthood curse is satisfied.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Racer wrote:
They need to make an addendum to the 2nd Articl of Faith. Right now it is an inaccurate portrayal of the last 150 years of Mormon Doctrine.

Article 2: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Should be changed to:

Article 2: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression unless you are a descendant of Laman and Lemuel, then you and your progeny will be punished for their transgtressions with a dark skin curse for centuries that will make you dull to the spirit and a lazy, idle, and loathsome people. If you belong to the seed of Cain, you will also be punished for his transgressions and have a black skin curse and will not be able to hold the Priesthood for centuries until the Lord randomly deems the priesthood curse is satisfied.


I think, when the articles were originally written it went without saying that it was referencing things pertaining to white people.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:47 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFev9IX-70

Watch and please learn something folks.... The same things exist in the Bible.


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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:57 am 
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Another interesting question is how come dark skinned people from central and south America got the priesthood before dark skinned people from Africa? Is the "curse" of Cain stronger than the "curse" of the Lamanites? And while we are at it, who the hell put a curse on the American Indian? I mean what did they do to piss off God?


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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:45 am 
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Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:
Another interesting question is how come dark skinned people from central and south America got the priesthood before dark skinned people from Africa? Is the "curse" of Cain stronger than the "curse" of the Lamanites? And while we are at it, who the hell put a curse on the American Indian? I mean what did they do to piss off God?


They tried to defend their homeland against the immigrants who God really wanted to own it.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:48 am 
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Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:
Another interesting question is how come dark skinned people from central and south America got the priesthood before dark skinned people from Africa?


Because they weren't of the same lineage....

The ban only applied to those of "African Descent", no matter the color. Some white members were denied the Priesthood or had it removed.

Blacks of the Islands, Central/South America, India, etc. WERE still given the Priesthood.
The issue had nothing to do with racism "by" the Church. If it had to do anything with racism, it was because of the racism against the black African, which note primarily ended the same period the ban was removed.

Quote:
Is the "curse" of Cain stronger than the "curse" of the Lamanites? And while we are at it, who the hell put a curse on the American Indian? I mean what did they do to piss off God?


1. You clearly don't know what the "curse" was.... Why don't you read the Book of Mormon instead of quote mining it, and discover for yourself??? And please watch the video's I linked above.

2. "Lamanite" was a term used primarily in the Book of Mormon to refer to everyone "non-Nephite".
It was the Book of Mormon's term equivalent to the Bibles "Gentile". Thus, when LDS, the Book of Mormon's Title page etc. refers to "Lamanites", it's not simply and only referring to those descended from Laman/Lemual.


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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:52 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
The issue had nothing to do with racism "by" the Church. If it had to do anything with racism, it was because of the racism against the black African, which note primarily ended the same period the ban was removed.


You have no idea why or when the ban was instigated do you...?

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:46 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFev9IX-70

Watch and please learn something folks.... The same things exist in the Bible.

Yeah - that makes it all right.

Why do apologists and their wannabes seem to think this is a good argument against all sorts of criticisms?

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:07 am 
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Quote:
So, in the end, the Book of Mormon writers simply adopted a racist view of the time and put it in the Book of Mormon as scripture and now the Church is stuck with what was obviously a mistaken view of some racists regarding the Bible when the Bible said no such thing. Correct?

Wow. It seems like such a simple way to discard the Book of Mormon as mere writings of men of a certain time. How is the Church going to get out of this one down the road? It seems every Mormon who believes in the Book of Mormon has to believe God, at least in one instance in the Americas, used the darkening of one's skin as a "curse." Is this a ticking time bomb.

Please correct or add to my understanding on these points.


Completely incorrect. I'll give you the official doctrine:

Quote:
2 Nephi 5:20–25. The Lamanites Were Cursed

• Verses 20–25 in 2 Nephi 5 answer at least four
questions about the curse that came to the Lamanites:

1. What was the curse?

The curse is clearly defined in verse 20 as being “cut
off from the presence of the Lord.”

2. What caused the curse?

According to verse 21, the cause of the curse came
“because of their iniquity” and “hardened . . . hearts.”
Since the days of Adam’s Fall, wickedness has
resulted in being cut off from the presence of the
Lord (see 1 Nephi 2:21; 2 Nephi 4:4; 9:6; Alma 9:13;
Ether 10:11).

3. What was the mark or sign set upon the
Lamanites?

It is also explained in verse 21 that so “they might
not be enticing unto my people [the Nephites] the
Lord did cause a skin of blackness to come upon
them [the Lamanites].” It would appear that this was
done to limit the spreading of more wickedness.
Later Alma suggested this same motive when he
explained that “the skins of the Lamanites were
dark . . . that thereby the Lord God might preserve
his people, that they might not mix and believe
in incorrect traditions” (Alma 3:6, 8). Throughout
scripture we find warnings of the Lord not to marry
unbelievers (see Deuteronomy 7:2–3; 2 Corinthians
6:14); the result of doing so was often that the
righteous were turned away from the Lord (see
Deuteronomy 7:4; 1 Kings 11:4; D&C 74:5).
Some people have mistakenly thought that the
dark skin placed upon the Lamanites was the
curse. President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972)
explained that the dark skin was not the curse:
“The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so
that they could be distinguished from the Nephites
and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark
skin was the sign of the curse [not the curse itself ].
The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the
Lord. . . .

“The dark skin of those who have come into the
Church is no longer to be considered a sign of the
curse. . . . These converts are delightsome and have
the Spirit of the Lord” (Answers to Gospel Questions,
comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66],
3:122–23).

4. What was the result of the curse?
Finally in verse 24 we learn that the result of the
curse—being cut off from the presence of the
Lord—is that they “become an idle people, full of
mischief and subtlety.”

One great blessing is that the curse is only valid as
long as people are wicked. If they repent, the “curse
of God [will] no more follow them” (Alma 23:18).
There are many examples of righteous Lamanites
who repented and enjoyed the Spirit of the Lord; one
of them even became a prophet (see Helaman 13:5).

Book of Mormon Institute Manual

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:11 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

Because they weren't of the same lineage....

The ban only applied to those of "African Descent", no matter the color. Some white members were denied the Priesthood or had it removed.

Blacks of the Islands, Central/South America, India, etc. WERE still given the Priesthood.
The issue had nothing to do with racism "by" the Church. If it had to do anything with racism, it was because of the racism against the black African, which note primarily ended the same period the ban was removed.


Race is a part of linage, and the ban was on those of a certain race. There is a certain amount of stupidity to argue this as though it somehow makes it all better.

Quote:
2. "Lamanite" was a term used primarily in the Book of Mormon to refer to everyone "non-Nephite".
It was the Book of Mormon's term equivalent to the Bibles "Gentile". Thus, when LDS, the Book of Mormon's Title page etc. refers to "Lamanites", it's not simply and only referring to those descended from Laman/Lemual.


As bcspace argument makes, the mark of the curse was dark skin(although his argument is just what I said about being stupid enough to make this argument as though it makes it all better), and Laminate was used to describe descendants of Laman and lemual's group that was cursed in the first part of the Book of Mormon. Later it was used more as a political description.

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 Post subject: Re: Little help on dark skin in the Book of Mormon, please
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:17 am 
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Posts: 7306
bcspace wrote:
Quote:
So, in the end, the Book of Mormon writers simply adopted a racist view of the time and put it in the Book of Mormon as scripture and now the Church is stuck with what was obviously a mistaken view of some racists regarding the Bible when the Bible said no such thing. Correct?

Wow. It seems like such a simple way to discard the Book of Mormon as mere writings of men of a certain time. How is the Church going to get out of this one down the road? It seems every Mormon who believes in the Book of Mormon has to believe God, at least in one instance in the Americas, used the darkening of one's skin as a "curse." Is this a ticking time bomb.

Please correct or add to my understanding on these points.


Completely incorrect. I'll give you the official doctrine:

Quote:
2 Nephi 5:20–25. The Lamanites Were Cursed

• Verses 20–25 in 2 Nephi 5 answer at least four
questions about the curse that came to the Lamanites:

1. What was the curse?

The curse is clearly defined in verse 20 as being “cut
off from the presence of the Lord.”

2. What caused the curse?

According to verse 21, the cause of the curse came
“because of their iniquity” and “hardened . . . hearts.”
Since the days of Adam’s Fall, wickedness has
resulted in being cut off from the presence of the
Lord (see 1 Nephi 2:21; 2 Nephi 4:4; 9:6; Alma 9:13;
Ether 10:11).

3. What was the mark or sign set upon the
Lamanites?

It is also explained in verse 21 that so “they might
not be enticing unto my people [the Nephites] the
Lord did cause a skin of blackness to come upon
them [the Lamanites].” It would appear that this was
done to limit the spreading of more wickedness.
Later Alma suggested this same motive when he
explained that “the skins of the Lamanites were
dark . . . that thereby the Lord God might preserve
his people, that they might not mix and believe
in incorrect traditions” (Alma 3:6, 8). Throughout
scripture we find warnings of the Lord not to marry
unbelievers (see Deuteronomy 7:2–3; 2 Corinthians
6:14); the result of doing so was often that the
righteous were turned away from the Lord (see
Deuteronomy 7:4; 1 Kings 11:4; D&C 74:5).
Some people have mistakenly thought that the
dark skin placed upon the Lamanites was the
curse. President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972)
explained that the dark skin was not the curse:
“The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so
that they could be distinguished from the Nephites
and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark
skin was the sign of the curse [not the curse itself ].
The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the
Lord. . . .

“The dark skin of those who have come into the
Church is no longer to be considered a sign of the
curse. . . . These converts are delightsome and have
the Spirit of the Lord” (Answers to Gospel Questions,
comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66],
3:122–23).

4. What was the result of the curse?
Finally in verse 24 we learn that the result of the
curse—being cut off from the presence of the
Lord—is that they “become an idle people, full of
mischief and subtlety.”

One great blessing is that the curse is only valid as
long as people are wicked. If they repent, the “curse
of God [will] no more follow them” (Alma 23:18).
There are many examples of righteous Lamanites
who repented and enjoyed the Spirit of the Lord; one
of them even became a prophet (see Helaman 13:5).

Book of Mormon Institute Manual


Completely incorrect.
I will give you the official doctrine on the matter.


Quote:
“The origins of priesthood availability are not entirely clear. Some explanations with respect to this matter were made in the absence of direct revelation and references to these explanations are sometimes cited in publications. These previous personal statements do not represent Church doctrine.”


And

Quote:
For a time in the Church there was a restriction on the priesthood for male members of African descent.  It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine. The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding.

Mormon Newsroom Statements 2012

 

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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