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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:07 pm 
God

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Mary wrote:
I was really hopeful that Brian Hales had come up with some pretty good evidence because I have always found Joseph's polyandrous relationships troubling. (Well Faith shattering actually)

The rules around family are quite tight in moral terms. I was taught by the church from my youth that adultery was wrong. I was taught the story of David who sinned in the case of Uriah's wife. I was taught the 10 commandments for goodness sake.

Then I find that the behaviour of Joseph has been covered up, hidden, not emphasized, whatever you want to call it.

I've just read the article that Fence Sitter referred to by Quinn, and it blows Brian's efforts out of the water. There is just too much evidence to the contrary.
I don't understand how Quinn can accept it and still maintain his belief in Joseph's prophethood.

I can't.

On Emma, it is interesting to note that Bidamon was also an adulterer and it was something that she could accept and condone. When one thinks of it, she had many years to get used to it.


I'd be interested in the Quinn article I hope it is made available soon. I've always enjoyed Quinn's work. I can understand the puzzlement over Quinn accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet while knowing what he does, but I guess if people can accept all of those Old Testament prophets with all the evil things they did, then Joseph Smith is a walk in the park. Also from Quinn's standpoint if Old Testament prophets can have their stories told warts and all then why shouldn't Joseph Smith. The believing LDS historians and apologists try to come up with after the fact justifications, but what it actually shows is that if Joseph Smith was alive today then they wouldn't follow him and that they have little faith that he was a prophet as the record stands so they instead choose to believe what feels best to them regardless of how implausible their theories are.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:12 pm 
God

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mercyngrace wrote:
Cicero wrote:
Mental note: never EVER disagree with MnG . . . :wink:


Just so long as we're clear. :lol:


Ditto!! :lol: :lol:

You've also got to be careful in your choice of polygamous wife.

Image

Polygamy seems like a dangerous game to play.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:15 pm 
God

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Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:
A few people have said the same to me. Everytime I go to check if it is still there I expect them to have deleted it already and everytime I'm shocked by the fact that they still have it on their site.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

I saved a copy for posterity. I also saved a PDF copy of Brian's paper. That thing will kill far more testimonies than it will save.


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Well, there are some bombshells in the Quinn report. WOW! Fresh stuff, guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:53 pm 
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I want a copy of the Quinn article!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Just me, It is brilliant.

Well done Quinn.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:04 pm 
God
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Mary wrote:
Just me, It is brilliant.

Well done Quinn.


It really is.

Does anyone else really really wanna see the journals the church has under lock & key? I want to sooooo baaaaad!

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And if pigs flew we wouldn't usually eat pork.~ldsfaqs


~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Quinn's response is brilliant. So much for those who say "but where are the children?" To deny that Joseph had sex with most, if not all of his wives, one would have to be an idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:59 pm 
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just me wrote:
Does anyone else really really wanna see the journals the church has under lock & key? I want to sooooo baaaaad!


+1 zillion


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:45 pm 
God

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just me wrote:
Mary wrote:
Just me, It is brilliant.

Well done Quinn.


It really is.

Does anyone else really really wanna see the journals the church has under lock & key? I want to sooooo baaaaad!


It's good to see Quinn back, he really is a very talented historian. I just read his piece and he truly nailed it. I've always felt that D&C 132 in combination with the Second Anointing permits any act besides murder on the part of Church leaders and Quinn made the case perfectly.

I didn't know that Brigham Young offered his wife to Joseph Smith, but given his requests of John Taylor and Heber C. Kimball it shouldn't come as a surprise. I think after Quinn's response it is going to be very difficult for anyone to claim that Joseph Smith was not having sexual relations with his wives (whether they were married to other men or not.) The case of Leonora makes you consider how willing many of these polyandrous wives actually were, especially since they were viewed as property of their husbands. I had assumed that given Joseph Smith's godlike status within the Mormon community that many were more than happy, but that may not have been in all cases.

Unlike Quinn however I feel Joseph Smith's actions condemn themselves, I don't think it was the Lord warning not to judge him I think he wrote D&C 132 himself to give himself immunity. Considering how the supposed revelation threatens Emma with eternal damnation for wanting her husband to be faithful I don't think Joseph deserves any understanding whatsoever. Nothing is going to change it though, especially not any apologetics, it is what it is. I'm sure Will Schryver will enjoy learning that early Mormons enjoyed sexual puns at women's expense as much as he apparently does.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 pm 
God

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Bob Loblaw wrote:
Quinn's response is brilliant. So much for those who say "but where are the children?" To deny that Joseph had sex with most, if not all of his wives, one would have to be an idiot.


Yeah Quinn really blows that old apologetic out of the water. I guess the mopologists will have to take their head out of the sand and admit to what Joseph was really doing .... or maybe not.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 pm 
God
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Ok. Somebody send this to me please.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Sorry people, but I'm a bit slow.

Where are you getting access to that Quinn article you are talking about? Is there a link?

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Bob Loblaw wrote:
I can't imagine Emma's suffering over this issue. She must have believed Joseph when he told her that God had commanded polygamy or she wouldn't have hesitatingly accepted it in a few cases. On the other hand she knew Joseph's history (Fanny Alger anyone?) and probably wondered if he was back to his old ways. Nevertheless she accepted. To call her unstable or a bitch is so completely wrong to me. She put up with a hell of a lot from Joseph that most wives wouldn't. Mine wouldn't.


I don't think Emma believed him when he told her that God commanded polygamy, but what choice did she have? She had to know that a public confrontation with him would destroy both of them. How could she publicly dispute anything he claimed God told him? In the end, the choices made by Emma in Nauvoo all seem to be driven by protecting her position as the prophet's wife and the welfare of her children.


I tend to agree for the most part, FS. I'm not sure if your summation entirely explains her "acquiescence" or not. Until there is more work done on Emma, it's really hard to say and hard even to gauge her "belief" (for lack of a better term). I only know that I emotionally understand the various contradictions of the human heart. But I also know that I understand a lot less about how the human heart deals with religious belief.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Steelhead and chap, if you PM me your email I will forward it to you. :)

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And if pigs flew we wouldn't usually eat pork.~ldsfaqs


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:21 pm 
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My favorite quote from Quinn on the "eternity only" explanation for Joseph's polyandrous marriages is this: "Its palatability as an explanation doesn't make it accurate."

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Cicero wrote:
just me wrote:
Does anyone else really really wanna see the journals the church has under lock & key? I want to sooooo baaaaad!


+1 zillion


No kidding. Now that I've read Quinn's response I feel like they are calling to me. There's gotta be some damn juicy goodness in them!

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not all facts are even facts~ldsfaqs
And if pigs flew we wouldn't usually eat pork.~ldsfaqs


~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:32 pm 
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I got my copy of Quinn's paper from Joe Geisner through a site called dropbox. Talk to Joe. I am sure he will give you access.

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:59 pm 
dblagent007 wrote:
I saved a copy for posterity. I also saved a PDF copy of Brian's paper. That thing will kill far more testimonies than it will save.


So you're saving it in the hope that it will "kill more testimonies"?

When and where was your testimony summarily executed?

How do you explain that Quinn himself survived all of this, yet you crumble to pieces at the first ripple.


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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:02 pm 
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RayAgostini wrote:
dblagent007 wrote:
I saved a copy for posterity. I also saved a PDF copy of Brian's paper. That thing will kill far more testimonies than it will save.


So you're saving it in the hope that it will "kill more testimonies"?

When and where was your testimony summarily executed?

How do you explain that Quinn himself survived all of this, yet you crumble to pieces at the first ripple.


Ray, tell me which specific drop of water is the one that's going to take out this town:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:07 pm 
Darth J wrote:
Ray, tell me which specific drop of water is the one that's going to take out this town:


You again? You're an anti-Mormon with zero credibility in my eyes.

Next question from someone with more credibility.


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