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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:28 am 
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palerobber wrote:

conservative stuffed-suit politicians like Romney are a-dime-a-dozen within Mormonism, so it's people like Reid and Echo Hawk who (due to their scarcity) are far more valuable to Church HQ in terms of managing their public image.

Yes. Wasn't that the entire point of the "I'm a Mormon" advertising campaign? Pointing out the diversity of the membership?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:39 am 
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Joey wrote:
From any one here who has created and provided jobs. Id sure love to know how  labor can exist without capital first.  Should I just wait for Harry to explain it?

It's kind of a chicken/egg thing, isn't it? You can't usually start a business without startup capital, you can't sustain a business without people to buy your product, and you can't create any goods or services without labor to do the work.

So which one of the three legs of a stool is the most important? Obviously they are all equally necessary.

That's kind of the point of the "you didn't do it by yourself" narrative that got people so riled up.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:43 am 
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Joey wrote:
Quote:
are drawn largely from the poorer classes. and these folks, whether in the US or abroad, are more likely to have politics that align with labor rather than capital.


From any one here who has created and provided jobs. Id sure love to know how  labor can exist without capital first.  Should I just wait for Harry to explain it?


how is that relevant to the LDS church's missionary efforts of which i was writing?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:55 am 
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Joey wrote:
From any one here who has created and provided jobs. Id sure love to know how  labor can exist without capital first.  Should I just wait for Harry to explain it?


So are you talking in terms of theoretical categories, or are you suggesting that private property must exist before people can exert their muscles in getting things accomplished?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Droopy, do you think Republican National Committee Chair Reince Priebus is maybe an anti-Mormon bigot?

i'd like to think not, but what else could be motivating him to personally attack and obstensibly lie repeatedly about a devout Mormon like Harry Reid? after all, there's no way Priebus coud know whether or not Reid was really tipped off to Romney not paying any taxes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Joey wrote:
From any one here who has created and provided jobs. Id sure love to know how  labor can exist without capital first.  Should I just wait for Harry to explain it?


So are you talking in terms of theoretical categories, or are you suggesting that private property must exist before people can exert their muscles in getting things accomplished?


I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to with:  "getting things accomplished".

But "having capital" is not dependent upon "having labor".

"Having labor", however, is dependent upon having (or providing) capital.  I've signed the front side of paychecks long enough to know. 

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:15 pm 
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palerobber wrote:
Droopy, do you think Republican National Committee Chair Reince Priebus is maybe an anti-Mormon bigot?

i'd like to think not, but what else could be motivating him to personally attack and obstensibly lie repeatedly about a devout Mormon like Harry Reid? after all, there's no way Priebus coud know whether or not Reid was really tipped off to Romney not paying any taxes.


Quote:
......a devout Mormon like Harry Reid


Hmmm.  How can Reid be a "devout" Mormon when he openly and publicly supports teachings (gay marriage) which are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Mormon Prophet?  This is a new one for me!

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Joey wrote:
Hmmm.  How can Reid be a "devout" Mormon when he openly and publicly supports teachings (gay marriage) which are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Mormon Prophet?  This is a new one for me!


Again......

Thomas S. Monson named as new LDS Church president

Regarding another question about whether church members could disagree with the faith's opposition to legalizing same-sex unions and still remain in good standing, he said the answer "depends on what the disagreement is."

"If it's an apostasy situation, that would not be appropriate. If it's something political, there is room for opinion here and there on either side."

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Joey wrote:
I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to with:  "getting things accomplished".

But "having capital" is not dependent upon "having labor".

"Having labor", however, is dependent upon having (or providing) capital.  I've signed the front side of paychecks long enough to know. 


You still haven't answered my question.

I should add that I detest seeing the world through market theories.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
Joey wrote:
Hmmm. How can Reid be a "devout" Mormon when he openly and publicly supports teachings (gay marriage) which are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Mormon Prophet? This is a new one for me!

"If it's an apostasy situation, that would not be appropriate. If it's something political, there is room for opinion here and there on either side."

I think the key sticking point for Joey might be the "openly and publicly" part.

The transgression that is truly "next to murder" in seriousness appears to be Embarrassing the Brethren by making opposing views known publicly.

On the other hand, the debate over marriage equality is a really minor one. It's no more than an argument about what to call a committed relationship. Promoting marriage equality for gays is not promoting gay sex. That will happen with or without using the word "marriage" to describe two committed partners.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Quote:
You still haven't answered my question.


I wasn't avoiding it - I merely asked for clarification to respond more articulately.  

Again, I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to with:  "getting things accomplished".  If you would elaborate I might understand your question better in a response.

Quote:
I should add that I detest seeing the world through market theories.


Then I would suggest two things:

First, don't wear binders. Those of us who have entrepreneurial passions, put capital at risk,  and need to understand them certainly don't have them built into our vision prescription for living in  and enjoying the beauty of this world. We just have multi-vision!

Second, take the safe route and be an employee - don't venture to be an employer!!  You will detest the whole effort of creating jobs and a business!  Market theories can be a bitch if you don't understand, and have practical experience within, their dynamic relevance!

Quote:
I think the key sticking point for Joey might be the "openly and publicly" part.


Precisely.  I believe Reid's sudden change for support of gay marriage were personal, based on his conversations with his family and not based on politics.  At least from his press conference.

Similarly, can members now openly and publicly support polygamy for political reasons and remain temple rec holders?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Romney has taken political lying to a whole new level, practically a form of art. I don't see how he could honestly qualify for a temple recommend.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Joey wrote:
Then I would suggest two things:

First, don't wear binders. Those of us who have entrepreneurial passions, put capital at risk,  and need to understand them certainly don't have them built into our vision prescription for living in  and enjoying the beauty of this world. We just have multi-vision!

Second, take the safe route and be an employee - don't venture to be an employer!!  You will detest the whole effort of creating jobs and a business!  Market theories can be a bitch if you don't understand, and have practical experience within, their dynamic relevance!


Hey, Joey-

I would suggest some things to you:

Your vision of the world is a latecomer to the scene. It is not a natural, God-given state of affairs. Humankind existed long before "capital" and "labor." Don't be so enamored of the power of your particular metaphors and hermeneutics that you arrogantly believe that they represent "reality."

So, drop the missionary BS. I don't have to buy into your two-bit philosophy to start a business and risk "capital." You are so full of your own crap that you can hardly see straight. The simple truth of the matter is that many businesses are built with borrowed "capital" and make lots of money by offloading the "externalities" that in a just system would tank any of them in short order.

You can enjoy your life wearing the blinders of your implicit "capitalism is God" philosophy, but I hope one day people recognize it for the destructive lie that it is before the planet is destroyed by the feckless robbers who shill this BS.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Joey wrote:

Hmmm.  How can Reid be a "devout" Mormon when he openly and publicly supports teachings (gay marriage) which are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Mormon Prophet?  This is a new one for me!

Can a Mormon support laws under which the sale and consumption of coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco are allowed? Can a Mormon support the legalization of marijuana? Can a Mormon support the repeal of laws against adultery? If you are arguing that a Mormon should not enjoy full fellowship while supporting laws that allow gay marriage, because gay marriage is against Mormon teachings, then why should a Mormon enjoy full fellowship if supporting laws that allow the sale and consumption of coffee and tea? I think Monson was articulating (however clumsily and cryptically) the principle that a Mormon's standing in the church is not based on the Mormon's political stance, but rather on personal beliefs and habits. So, a Mormon can be n good standing and support public policies that extend marriage recognition to gays and lesbians. But a Mormon cannot eneter into a gay marriage and expect to maintain full fellowship.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Quote:
Hey, Joey-

I would suggest some things to you:

Your vision of the world is a latecomer to the scene. It is not a natural, God-given state of affairs. Humankind existed long before "capital" and "labor." Don't be so enamored of the power of your particular metaphors and hermeneutics that you arrogantly believe that they represent "reality."

So, drop the missionary BS. I don't have to buy into your two-bit philosophy to start a business and risk "capital." You are so full of your own crap that you can hardly see straight. The simple truth of the matter is that many businesses are built with borrowed "capital" and make lots of money by offloading the "externalities" that in a just system would tank any of them in short order.

You can enjoy your life wearing the blinders of your implicit "capitalism is God" philosophy, but I hope one day people recognize it for the destructive lie that it is before the planet is destroyed by the feckless robbers who shill this BS.


And Third:  I would seriously suggest some anger management counseling.  

I get the impression that you may be unemployed or have a serious resentment for those who are proud to invest in providing jobs.  Anyway, hope it all works out for you.  Still looking for clarification on your question if you were serious about a response.

Up here in Utah on my annual pilgrimage for the Tour De Utah.  Sponsoring a team again.  I love this sport and this event.  Some of the best routes for rides.  But capitalism is responsible for funding this event so the devil must be near!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Joey wrote:
Hmmm.  How can Reid be a "devout" Mormon when he openly and publicly supports teachings (gay marriage) which are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Mormon Prophet?  This is a new one for me!

Well, equality answered that question quite thoroughly, I think. But why are you asking some nobodies on an internet forum, anyway? Go ask your bishop, see what he says.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Joey wrote:
And Third:  I would seriously suggest some anger management counseling.


Oh, I am sure that it makes you quite angry when people don't bow their heads in submission to the gospel you just shared with us. LOL!

Joey wrote:
I get the impression that you may be unemployed or have a serious resentment for those who are proud to invest in providing jobs.


    1) Wrong. I am employed, and have been consistently since the age of 14, with the only break being for my mission.
    2) Wrong. My mother is a small business owner (and has been for decades), who is a "job creator." She has employed numerous people over the years.
    3) Not only does your free-market gospel drive your assumptions, but it has provided you with a definition of 'heretic' that you reflexively apply to anyone who is not cowed into submission by one of your sermons.

Joey wrote:
Anyway, hope it all works out for you.  Still looking for clarification on your question if you were serious about a response.


If you were truly interested, you would have already figured it out. I was really quite clear about it.

Joey wrote:
Up here in Utah on my annual pilgrimage for the Tour De Utah.  Sponsoring a team again.  I love this sport and this event.  Some of the best routes for rides.  But capitalism is responsible for funding this event so the devil must be near!!!


Good for you! Since you don't really understand what I think and why, we can pretend that your joke was clever and let it pass.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Quote:
2) Wrong. My mother is a small business owner (and has been for decades), who is a "job creator." She has employed numerous people over the years.


That's very admirable.  Does(did) she find satisfaction and enjoyment in engaging in the challenges of the free market of  capitalism and providing jobs for others?

Did you support her efforts in that venture?

Sounds like a dedicated and remarkable woman.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Joey wrote:
That's very admirable.  Does(did) she find satisfaction and enjoyment in engaging in the challenges of the free market of  capitalism and providing jobs for others?

Did you support her efforts in that venture?

Sounds like a dedicated and remarkable woman.


Joey, let me cut to the chase here. My point was one of meta-discourse. You seem to have missed it completely, and I am not interested in discussing my relationship with my mother with you so you can use it to BRT, resolve concerns, and convert me to your wonderful gospel of free market capitalism.

In any case, enjoy your time in Utah. It has a beautiful landscape, imo.

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"[T]here are other values that underpin Mormon leadership even more deeply — and they're the same ones espoused by Harvard Business School. I am fortunate to have been one of a number of Mormons who studied at the Harvard Business School." ~ Professor Clayton M. Christensen, Harvard Business School


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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
and I am not interested in discussing my relationship with my mother


Well son, then why did you bring her into the conversation to begin with???  You seem to be all over the place, angry and emotional when asked for logical accountability in your positions/arguments.  

Still, thought your mother sounded like a true entrepreneur.  Hard to find that today.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Reid Now Moving Toward Official Church Discipli
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Joey wrote:
... can members now openly and publicly support polygamy for political reasons and remain temple rec holders?

Unless people are being punished for their personal opinions and philosophies now, rather than their actions, why would publicly advocating for the legal right to marry multiple partners (assuming it doesn't translate to action, of course) be a worthiness problem?

Is there a temple question that addresses that sort of thing? More generally, is there a precedent for punishing or marginalizing members for their (non-doctrinal) public opinions?

I realize that a few years ago a BYU instructor did not get his contract renewed after writing an op-ed piece in support of gay rights (BYU denied any connection, btw), but I never heard anything about him being barred from temple entry or any other sanctions.

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